Mith

Droidekas = Echo Papa 607 drone?

In practicality? Yes. The Echo Papa 607, for all of its advantages and abilities, seemed to be unable to hit main characters. It in fact, had downright terrible aim. I'd want to write it off as just character shields, but the thing seemed to really suck at hitting people.

It did at least come close.

I agree that the droidekas were quite formidable because once deployed they make it vary hard for a Force user to use his abilities at the same time deflecting the onslaught of blaster fire. But they were taken down by Force users.

While using the force would make Vader more formidable than your average joe against the Echo Papa, the fact of the matter is simply making more drones and launching more than one at once would easily solve this problem.

If Vader was to replace the E-D in the "Arsenal of Freedom", or even if not, the first drone would not have any intel on Vader and what he could do. Hell the first drone Riker and co encountered didn't even have shields and was easily taken out by one shot from a phaser. Vader could easily use the Force on it as he had done many times with the various battle droids.

...So what? The first drone is meant to gather intel on the target, not fight it. That's why when it first met Riker it projected itself as someone he knew from the missing ship. Unfortunately for the Echo Papa, the Enterprise could tell that the target wasn't human and so it didn't work out so well for it.

Though TK is known in ST it is not common, nor should we expect that the drone would have the kind of defenses against TK.

It's common enough that Quark mentioned in 'The Jem'Hadar' that he's seen TK inhibitors that were much bulkier than the ones that the Vorta had worn (which wasn't one at all), suggesting that they could in fact, be made and could be made portable. While this itself isn't evidence that the Echo Papa could actively halt Vader's TK, it is worth correcting you on.

But the drone has another problem. Even if it was winning the fight against Vader, Vader could still win by unleashing the Force Scream. Silly but he has used it at least twice with devastating results.

Please, please God tell me you're joking.

Vader has faced more dangerous opponents than an Echo Papa 607 drone and won. Now if the drone was a fourth or later generation then yeah I can possibly see it win.

The Echo Papa 607 isn't a drone--Jason just sucks at basic English. The Echo Papa 607 is a unit that produces drones, including a larger version capable of attacking and destroying a ship.

Then again Jason in his infinitesimal wisdom decided that Vader should fight only one.

 

I honestly don't think Jason intended that to be the case--or at least not the case of him fighting the first, weakest one. That seems a bit odd and silly with his usual threads.

Since when does Jem'Hadar attack bugs equal to asteroids?

I agree, they'd easily exceed.

What proof do you have that their battleships are superior to ISDs?

To start? The Empire's highest canon display of firepower shows us that they can't effortlessly vaporize an asteroid field and that said asteroids make not only effective shields when fighting, but that asteroid fields pose a threat to ships in general, as was the case with Empire Strikes Back.

As poorly debate capable as Jason is, he is correct in this matter.

ISDs have many, many turbolasers, blasters and ion cannons that can be fired at the same time. Can those JH battleships absorb dozens upon dozens of weapons fire from a single ISD let alone two or three?

So your argument that ISDs are superior is because they have tons of guns? So what? Look at modern navy designs today. After World War II, which showed the US using ships with dozens of gun barrels, we switched to having at most, half a dozen guns--most of which are only designed for defensive measure and one or two for bombardment.

If anything, the Empire's gun crazy design is a step back from modern warfare, not a step forward.

Besides, if the Empire decided to invade then that would mean that they've made plans and prepared accordingly. Building more ships, training more Stormtroopers as to not affect their operations in their galaxy.

The Empire is stretched out badly enough due to rebellion from their own people. Making war against anyone, including the Federation or the Klingon Empire would be risk their entire house of cards. Waring with the Dominion ensures it. Even Starfleet, with far far more advanced sensor technology couldn't snoop out Changling infiltrators. And yes, they do have telepaths and empaths, so Vader isn't going to be a miracle shot.

Another thing, why would the Empire even need to invade the Dominion just for the cloning tech? I'm quite sure the Empire would prefer a non violent method such as buying the technology or even a tech trade. Both empires would gain without needlessly shedding blood.

 

...You're shitting me, right? The Empire will invade because Palpatine will view the Dominion as a threat. The Dominion will invade because they view the Empire as a threat. For fuck's sake dude, they invaded the Federation, who are renown for peace and exploration. They even stay out of other people's business. Yet the Dominion invaded them all the same.

Gibberish, complete Gibberish,Jason.

 

 

 

Because it took a JH battleship ten minutes to destroy a measly Defiant class ship means it is equal to a Star Destroyer? Stop drinking your piss. It is messing with your head.

That 'measly' Defiant class ships has an armament excess of current Earth. I hardly call that 'measly'.

personally believe that once both empires are aware of each other, they'll both find something they like and will at first make a diplomatic contact and try to achieve their goals without resorting to violence.

Why in God's name do you actually believe that?

The Empire will not wage an expensive war for a cloning tech when they have their own AND their got trillions and trillions of people to draw from for their war efforts.

The trillions and trillions that they never use or are mentioned. Why? Because the population doesn't want to wage war. It's pretty obvious given that the Old Republic was so against forming their own standing army that they all abhor warfare (somehow). The only time we see the actual population get involved is when their own planet is on the line. They don't care about anything else.

And unlike the rest of the stooges that made up the Old Republic's Senate, the Dominion is actually politically capable. They're not going to threaten planets; they're going to offer them things like food, medicine, and protection. And we all saw in the Old Republic lush, green planets had starving populations.

Palpatine would not ally himself with them since they are aliens and thus scum. If the Emperor wanted the Dominion's cloning tech, he wouldn't just storm the Dominion and snatch it. He's smart enough to know that sometimes it is best to hold one's nose and be nice and try to either buy the tech or do some sort of tech swap.

Unfortunately, even if we were to believe that the Emperor would be willing to wait, the Dominion won't and they're exceptionally xenophobic. That was a rather large part of their persona throughout all of DS9. How this has suddenly vanished according to you is beyond me. The Dominion is only going to use that time to planet their spies throughout the galaxy.

But in this scenario, in order for Palpatine to invade an alien empire from another galaxy even if access was through a portal\wormhole\my asshole, he's going to make plans, send spies and ramp up ship production and troop cloning or recruiting. This is if he plans on waging a war with the Dominion without depriving ships in his galaxy.

I doubt spies will be all that effective. The Dominion is pretty good in the espionage department and the Empire...the Empire is not. If they had been as remotely competent as you seem to think they are, then they wouldn't have been relying upon searching the entire galaxy for the Rebels.

Second, the Empire was stretched badly enough before this. When open rebellion started, they couldn't even spare the ships to shut down the Mon Calamari, despite it being a literal drop in the bucket of their fleet. As in, less than one percent if I remember correctly.

If his spies\probe droids come back with info regarding ship count and their capbilities then ship production would be adjusted accordingly.

Their probe droids suck dragonballs. The Rebels, with inferior sensor technology, were able to detect the thing landing. Those probe droids would be shot out of orbit before they even land.

The Empire does not necessarily need to go into fleet battles to win the war, just send enough ships to enough planets to cripple the Dominion into surrendering their cloning tech. Remember, Jason OP makes no mention as to who will win in an all out war but will the Empire be able to succeed in getting the cloning tech. Strike cloning facilities and grab the necessary equipment and data and head back home.

 

Why on God's green Earth would the Dominion surrender one of their largest advantages? It's simply absurd. Nor does the Dominion actually care if you bomb a few of their member worlds. Because more than one of them are unwilling member of the Dominion. Of course, that won't stop them from using it as a political tool against the Empire even as they dismantle the fleet that attacked them.

And you seem to be assuming that the Empire will succeed in this. Do you honestly think this is the first time someone's tried that? Ie, the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar tried that. The Dominion knew about it thanks to their changling operatives and turned it into a trap to cripple both agencies. Both of which were far more competent than any Imperial group has shown itself to be.

Care to put that in english?

He's bitching that the game mechanics don't properly represent the actual combat capabilities of the ships they represent.

Trekking to War has been updated with Chapter Four.

Chapter Four

Engage

Captain’s Log

Supplemental

Our mission to retrieve Shelby was successful, but first officer Spock was wounded in the process and is in our sickbay, where Doctor McCoy is doing all he can to help him. Meanwhile, I have ordered a five megaton torpedo aimed at Hutt’s compound. According to our sensors, it will not cause any damage to the surrounding settlements.

“How is he Bones?†Kirk asked as he walked into the medical bay. Doctor McCoy was at a sink, washing his hands when he looked up to see the captain.

“He’s doing well Jim,†McCoy said as he put his hands under the dryer, “We’ve managed to remove most of the shrapnel and with our new dermal regenerator I’ve been able to seal up most of the open wounds.†He gestured to a large dark grey steel machine that stood almost as tall as Kirk with a small white pointed crystal at the end. “A wonder of technology it is,†McCoy said, “I’ve only had it for seven months and I can’t remember how I got along without it.â€

Kirk smiled, relieved. “Good work Bones. When will he be ready for duty?â€

“Well, physically he could be up and walking in a few hours,†McCoy said, “But he’ll need a few days for his body to catch up to him. Even for a Vulcan, he was put under a tremendous strain. That grenade hit several of his vital organs. If we hadn’t beamed him up when we had, he might not have made it.â€

Kirk nodded, “I’ll do my best to keep him down as long as I can doctor.â€

“He’d obey if you order him.†McCoy pointed out as he started back towards his office.

“You know Mister Spock,†Kirk said, “As soon as I tried he’d make some logical argument that backs me into a corner.â€

McCoy shrugged, “Stubborn necked Vulcan.â€

Kirk smiled and started to say something, but there was a chirp from a nearby comm. “Sulu to Kirk, Sulu to Kirk, please respond.â€

Kirk frowned and moved to the comm, opening his side, “Kirk here Mister Sulu. Are you ready to proceed with the bombardment?â€

“We are sir, but a large ship is moving to intercept. They have ordered that we power down our weapons and shields and prepare to be boarded.â€

Kirk took in a deep breath. “Very well Mister Sulu, I’ll be right there. Go to yellow alert.â€

“Aye sir, yellow alert.â€

“Friends of Mister Hutt?†McCoy asked.

“Seems so.†Kirk said.

---------------------

The small ship was of a strange design–not that it bothered Captain Motto Gerald; he’d seen thousands of ships with thousands of configurations. What worried him was the fact that they couldn’t scan beyond the ship’s hull. They had no idea how many people were aboard or what sort of creatures were aboard. The Imperial Star Destroyer was supposed to have some of the most advance sensor technologies in the galaxy, yet it seemed somehow smugglers, raiders, and pirates were able to find ways around it.

“Distance to ship?†Gerald asked.

“Approximately four million kilometers.†his first officer reported.

“Still not within weapons range,†Gerald grumbled. He tapped his foot and then nodded, “Have they powered down as ordered?â€

“No sir.†the tactical officer said.

“They might be preparing to make a hyperspace jump.†the commander said.

“This close to a planet?†Gerald asked in disbelief. “A ship that large would tear itself apart.â€

“Their only chance would be to put distance between them and the planet before escaping.†the tactical officer said.

Gerald nodded. It was the best choice the small frigate ship would have. “Launch fighters and bombers.†he said. “Order them to target the engines. If they attempt to escape, disable them.â€

“Aye sir.†the commander reported, “launching fighters.â€

A few moments later and the commander turned to him, “Sir, the ship is responding to our hail. They wish to speak with you sir.â€

Gerald put on a smug smile. The filthy pirates saw the screen of fighters and bombers heading their way. They wouldn’t escape and they knew they couldn’t match the firepower of an Imperial Star Destroyer. They wanted to negotiate. “Put it on the holo-imager.†he said, turning to the large round holographic display. The image of the small ship, the fighters, and the Merciful vanished to be replaced by the upper body of a man in his thirties wearing a yellow shirt, with a arrow-head insignia on his left breast.

“This is Captain James T. Kirk of the Federation Starship Enterprise,†the man said.

“Greetings captain,†Gerald sneered, taking in the moment, “Your ship has committed a criminal offense against the Hutt Clan–and thus you have committed an offense against the Empire. You will surrender to us immediately, where upon you and your commanding officers will be executed for treason and your crew taken as prisoners of war.â€

“I will do no such thing.†the captain said. “This Hutt Clan you speak of kidnaped one of my officers and exposed her to torture and rape.â€

Gerald flinched at the accusation. It was rather well known that the Hutt Clan was a criminal syndicate that had gained large influence over the past century by exploiting shit holes like Tatooine. The Empire however, despite its massive navy and military power, could not root them out. Not while terrorists and usurpers still plotted to gain control of the Empire from within.

“Then you should have contacted the Imperial Slave Authority,†Gerald said, “They would have set the matter straight.†That was a lie, Gerald knew. The Imperial Slave Authority was little more than a small agency designed to monitor the transaction of slavery, not get mixed up in it. Only when a high profile senator was kidnaped or someone with some authority had lost someone to the practice was every anything actually done about it–though the Empire made every show with the Hutt Clan to make it look as if they were civilizing the outer worlds.

“We didn’t know.†the captain said.

“Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law.†Gerald said, relieved that the captain didn’t know to challenge him. “You will surrender your vessel or we will take it by force.â€

The man’s face grew stone cold. “You will not take this ship,†he said, “Not while I remain captain.â€

Gerald grinned, “Take a look around you captain, you are nearly surrounded by our fighters and bombers. Within moments you will be cut off from escape.â€

“Captain,†the man said, “This ship is armed and ready to defend herself.â€

The captain scoffed and turned to his tactical officer, “Analysis of their weapon systems.â€

“We detect four torpedo launchers of some sort.†the officer reported, “and four energy cannons. I haven’t seen this sort of configuration before.â€

The captain let out a chuckle, “Eight in total. Is that what you believe can take on an Imperial Star Destroyer captain? Look at our ship; it is armed to the teeth with guns. And in half a minute, I will open fire with everything we’ve got. You have until we come within weapons range to surrender captain.â€

“Then we have nothing more to discuss.†the captain said and suddenly, his image vanished.

Gerald shook his head and took in a deep breath. “Distance?â€

“One hundred twenty-two kilometers sir.â€

“Excellent,†Gerald said, “When we are within range, order our fighters and bombers to engage.â€

“Aye sir.â€

Kirk stared at the massive warship. It was well over a kilometer long, armed to teeth in weapons and no doubt carrying a large number of support craft. It was shaped like a wedged dagger, with a great control bridge overseeing the rest of the ship from the back. In a way, they reminded Kirk of the old style carriers that Earth used before they had moved out into space. The troops on the ship must have been ten times larger than the Enterprise security force. If it came down to a fight aboard the ship, they wouldn’t stand a chance.

“Scotty, what’s the status on our weapons?†Kirk asked from the bridge.

“I’ve got all the phaser banks up and aft launcher number two.†Scotty said, “But the phaser banks are low powered and targeting sensors are still having trouble marking anything beyond twenty thousand klicks.â€

Kirk nodded. That was a massive tactical disadvantage. “Sulu, tactical analysis.â€

“She’s armed to the teeth sir,†Sulu reported, “I’m reading half a dozen heavy plasma turrets and dozens of other smaller ones, including what appears to be ion cannons–but all low yield sir.â€

“Aye sir,†Scotty said from his station, “They’re using a two decade old fusion reactor to power their ship. Why, the NX-01 had a better engine than this thing.â€

“Are you saying that these people are over a century behind us in weapons technology?†Kirk asked.

“Aye sir.â€

“But with a ship that large, it could still be a threat.†Sulu warned. “Especially in our condition.â€

Kirk nodded, “Noted Mister Chekov. Analysis of their defensive capabilities?â€

“Their armor is incredibly thick,†Chekov said, “But their shield grid is low powered. Maximum dissipation rate is just over ten petajoules. Shield recharge rate is by my guess, roughly two petajoules.â€

Kirk frowned, “A single photon torpedo would puncture their shield and still have enough to scorch the hull.â€

“They’re moving into weapons range.†Sulu warned.

“Hail them.â€

“They aren’t responding sir.†Uhura said, “They’ve begun to jam our communications. We can’t get a word out.â€

“Damn them.†Kirk growled. “Then let’s show them just who’ve they’ve picked a fight with. Sulu, lock forward phasers onto them. Fire when ready.â€

“Ready sir.â€

“Fire!â€

“Weapon range in two seconds,†tactical reported.

Gerald nodded, “Prepare to drop us to one fourth speed, All gunners, prepare to...â€

Suddenly, two bright blue lances erupted from just under the hull of the ship, striking the Merciful’s forward shields. The ship rocked gently.

“Direct hit sir.†tactical reported, “Shields down by five percent. Minor thermal damage to the hull.â€

Gerald frowned. How did they penetrate their shields? He snarled. “All weapons, fire!â€

The Merciful dipped its pointed hull downwards as it came in, allowing all of its heavy guns to focus on the small ship. Lime green bolts of plasma speed through space towards the small ship. To Gerald’s astonishment, the ship quickly maneuvered out of the way of the bulk of the volley, returning fire with its small blue lances. The Merciful shuddered again.

“Minor shield loss.†the commander reported, “But we’re reading more thermal damage.â€

“How are they penetrating our shields?†Gerald asked.

“It appears that their weapons are similar in concept to disruptor technology.†the commander reported.

“Our shields can’t block disruptors.†Gerald said, nodding. He looked at the small ship, “But how did they get something like those? They shouldn’t even be able to properly power them.â€

“They may not be able to sir,†the commander said, “Only a small portion of the energy pushed its way into the shields.â€

Gerald laughed, “Alright, they’ve spat their wad. All fighters and bombers move in!â€

“Their attack craft is moving in sir!†Checkov yelled.

“Use detonation blasts.†Kirk said.

The Enterprise fired several of small blue pulses through space. Designed much in the way as the Romulan plasma torpedoes, the energy was held within a expiring containment field until it reached its destination–and exploded. Kirk watched as the small fighters and bombers were blasted into oblivion–nothing but heated shrapnel flying through space.

The Enterprise shuddered as plasma bolts connected to her shield grid.

“Minor damage to the shields sir.†Scotty reported.

“Return fire Chekov.â€

“Gladly sir.â€

The Enterprise’s forward phaser banks fired, racking enemy ship’s forward hull. Kirk watched the energy readouts on the screen shudder slightly. Despite the Enterprise’s superior technology, the damage it had received had left it vulnerable. Despite that, he saw the hull heat up around the area the phaser beams had impacted. They were doing some damage to the hull, but it wasn’t enough.

“Scotty, is there any way you can coax more power from the phaser’s energizers?â€

“Not without blowing it out sir.†Scotty reported.

“Target their weapon batteries,†Kirk said, “The large ones. See if we can dissuade them from firing.â€

“Aye sir.†Chekov said.

The Merciful shuddered under the light disruptor fire from the small pirate ship. The first wave of bombers had been scattered by a sort of pulse explosion. The few remaining ones had moved in to attack, but were quickly swatted away by the ship’s weapons. That bothered Gerald more than anything; never before had he seen weapons capable of such accuracy. And from the ship’s main weapons too!

Suddenly, the Merciful shook terribly, hurling the captain to the ground. He rolled until he hit the side of the wall. Cursing, he struggled to get to his feet as the ship shook violently yet again. “Report!†he screamed.

“They’ve hit two of our heavy turbolaser turrets.†someone shouted, “Port turret one and two are destroyed, turret three is not responding!â€

“Emergency repair teams to turret three!†Gerald roared as he rushed back to the tactical console, “How did they penetrate the armor?â€

“They hit one of the low-key armored areas of the turrets,†the commander reported, “At the base where the turret meets the hull. The heated armor broke the plasma mains and it ignited. I’m reading heavy damage to decks below and near it. Recommend we evacuate those sections.â€

“Do it,†Gerald said, “But do whatever you can to keep turret three active.â€

“They’re trying to hail us sir.†the communications officer reported, “It’s scrambled, but I think they’re demanding out surrender.â€

Gerald spat in the officer’s direction, “Send second and third wave bombers. I want that ship destroyed!â€

“They are ignoring hails captain,†Urhura said.

“Can they hear us?â€

“Aye sir,†Scotty said, “It’d be a mess, but they’d get the gist of it sir.â€

“Second and third wave of fighters coming in sir.†Chekov said. “Orders?â€

“Dispose of them Mister Chekov.†Kirk said heavily.

“Firing phasers.â€

The Enterprise fire four pulses at the oncoming waves and within seconds, the bulk of them had been vaporized. Roughly a quarter had remained. Desperate, they were opening fire, green pulses of plasma and bright white torpedoes filled space inbetween. The Enterprise barely shuddered.

“Low yield bombs sir,†Sulu reported, “About a quarter kiloton.â€

“Ignore them.†Kirk said, “Target their mother ship. Target the starboard forward turrets.â€

“Targeted sir.â€

“Fire.â€

The Enterprise fired its forward phasers. It struck the base of the turrets, heating the metal and causing the plasma conduits within to explode, destroying the turret and damaging the one next to it. “Target the third turret,†Kirk said, suddenly struck with an idea, “That should keep the remaining two from firing.â€

“Aye sir.â€

“Starboard turret is destroyed sir,†the commander reported as he struggled to his feet, “Starboard turret number two has suffered heavy damage.â€

The ship shuddered violently again.

“Shit!†the tactical officer screamed.

“What!†Gerald yelled.

“They destroyed starboard turret three–turrets four and two are offline. Power systems on the affected decks is fluctuating sir.â€

“Status of their shields?†Gerald asked.

“Shield output is nine percent lower than when the battle started,†the tactical officer reported.

“What’s the status of our shields?†Gerald asked.

“Nearly full power sir,†the commander said, “But if those disruptors keep targeting our weapons, we won’t be able to hurt them. They’ll just keep firing until our shield generators overheat.â€

“I want maximum power to forward shields,†Gerald snapped, “Double front, understood?â€

The commander frowned, “Sir?â€

“Ready our concussion torpedoes.†Gerald said, a savage grin growing over his face, “Take us as close as we can get. I don’t want to give them time to escape.â€

The Merciful shuddered again. “Port turret four is out.†the tactical officer reported.

“Captain, this is insane!†the commander snapped, “Each of those torpedoes carries a yield of eight megatons! You risk crippling the Merciful!â€

“And them as well!†Gerald purred. “Once their shield is down, we’ll tear them apart!†he turned to the helm station, “Full speed! I want us within five klicks of the Enterprise a minute ago!â€

“Aye sir!â€

“Reading an increase in their engines sir.†Sulu reported.

“They may be trying to ram us.†Chekov warned.

“They’d never catch us.†Sulu said, “They must know by now we can fly circles around them.â€

“Or they may be trying to escape.†Kirk said. “Bring us to a parallel course, fifty kilometers.â€

“They’re moving too fast sir,†Sulu said, “They’ll pass within twelve kilometers of us.â€

“That’s fine Mister Sulu.†Kirk said.

“Sir, reading power increase in their forward launchers!†Chekov yelled.

“Those things are too large to target us.†Sulu said.

“But not from ten klicks!†Kirk yelled. “Evasive manuervers!â€

The Enterprise’s impulse engines flared as she desperately tried to evade the bright white torpedoes as they flew right towards them. The Enterprise twisted, narrowly escaping two of the torpedoes, struck by a third, and glanced by a fourth as it detonated half a klick away. The Enterprise shuddered violently, warning claxons sounding as consoles sparked and exploded.

For a brief moment, Kirk had thought that the ship itself had been torn apart. But the moment passed as the shaking stopped and the Enterprise sat in one piece. “Damage report!†he yelled.

“Heavy damage to our screens sir!†Scotty reported, “Starboard arch is down to twenty-five percent. Other archs holding at roughly thirty-five. We suffered some heavy thermal damage to the hull when that torpedo exploded, but nothing we can’t handle.â€

“Status of other ship?†Kirk asked.

“They diverted their aft shields to forward to compensate sir,†Chekov said, “Their aft grid is burnt out. Their forward shields are at eighty-two percent. Reading heavy thermal damage to their hull.â€

Kirk sat forward, “Put three hundred kilometers between us and the Merciful. If they fire, return fire.â€

“They’re moving away sir.†the tactical officer said. “We’re reading their shields as low sir.â€

Gerald grinned. “Trying to run away, eh? Commander, order all remaining gunners to open fire on the Enterprise. Scramble whatever fighters and bombers we have and order them to intercept. They’re not getting away after all this!â€

The Merciful’s remaining batteries opened fire. The smaller ships danced around the incoming fire, evading much of it, but taking several heavy strikes as it pulled away. “Their aft shields are holding sir.†the tactical officer reported.

“Damn!†Gerald cursed. If they didn’t take advantage of the damage they’d done to the small ship, then they’d never get another chance. They weren’t going to let them get that close again. The bombardment torpedoes would never catch them and their fighters didn’t carry the necessary ordinance to take out a ship that powerful. A smile came to his face; they had something they didn’t though; back up.

“Request that the Devastator move to assist us.†Gerald said. “Order all Imperial ships within range to engage the Enterprise.â€

“Aye sir.â€

“They’re returning fire sir.â€

“Brace for impact!†Gerald screamed.

The small ship’s aft weapons fired several quick lances at the Merciful, each striking at the exposed turrets. They all exploded as the plasma conduits ruptured. Gerald watch as more damage report screens appeared on the holographic display. Power shortages were spread throughout the ship and radiation levels were starting to rise to dangerous levels.

“Hazard teams are responding sir.†the commander reported.

“Sir,†Sulu said, “I’m detecting four more ships moving to intercept. They appear to be frigates of some sort.â€

“On screen.†Kirk said.

They were small, triangular, shaped similar to a sword. Their long wings were like hilts, and their forward hull, the blade. Kirk noticed at least a dozen different weapon placements like the larger warship, the Merciful. Unlike the Merciful, they were a fraction of the ship’s length, barely larger than the Enterprise herself, and not even a tenth of a fraction its mass. They were already opening fire, bright hot green plasma filling the screen. The Enterprise casually moved out of the way. It was clear they were just trying to diver attention from the crippled Merciful.

“Their shields are no match for our phasers sir,†Chekov reported, “A few good shots should cripple them.â€

“Do it.†Kirk said, wondering what their game was.

The Enterprise’s forward phasers illuminated space, striking the first frigate and burning away a few meters of the hull. The Enterprise fired again, this time cutting through the hull as if it were made of butter. The third time and the Enterprise ducked low, firing at one of the small black cylinders that were the engines. There was an explosion and the ship was thrown off course, forcing the other three ships to make rapid course corrections.

“We are moving within their optimal range sir.†Sulu warned.

“Noted.â€

The ships began to open fire with greater ferocity, forcing the Enterprise to weave around them as it fired its phasers, carving the ships up with near relative ease. Within a minute, the four ships were crippled and burning, barely holding their own against the singular Federation cruiser. The Enterprise shuttered.

“The Merciful is moving back within weapons range sir.†Chekov reported.

“I think we’ve had just about enough of them,†Kirk said. “Mister Chekov, prepare a photon torpedo. Fifty percent yield. Target their forward shields. Let’s give them a wake-up call.â€

“Aye sir.â€

“They’re firing a torpedo.†the commander warned.

“What type?†the captain asked.

“Warhead unknown sir,†the commander said. “I recommend evasive maneuvers.â€

Gerald flinched. The Imperial Star Destroyer was a beast in battle, but it maneuvered like a beached whale with all their flippers missing. “Do it.†he barked. “And increase power to forward shields.â€

The Merciful had but begun to flare up its thrusters when the torpedo hit. The explosion rocked the Merciful, throwing Gerald over the holographic display. He landed with a loud crunch. The captain wanted to scream in pain, but bit down on his lips to stop himself. Blood oozing from his lower lip, he dragged himself up.

“Shields are nearly gone!†he heard someone yell, “Massive hull rupture on forward decks!â€

The captain made his way over to the holographic display; The tip of the Merciful had been vaporized and a scorch mark ran across the hull for nearly fifty meters. The forward shields readout was fluctuating between zero and nine percent as the secondary shield generators tried to take over. Gerald looked to the frigates that were now desperately giving all their worth against the Enterprise, trying to prevent the loss of the Merciful–but the Enterprise was responding with brutal strikes, destroying one of the ships and disabling main power on the other two. The last was using the hulls of the former to try and prevent the Enterprise from pin pointing the weaknesses in the ship’s defenses.

“Sir, the Devastator is responding to our requests for aid!†the communication officer reported. “She and two Victory frigates are moving to engage the enemy now.â€

Gerald turned to the screen to see that it was true. The Devastator and her aid ships were already moving in close to engage the Enterprise, running as fast as they could to the battle. Already the Enterprise as adjusting itself to move to engage.

“Sir, the Avenger is emerging from hyperspace.†the comm officer reported.

“Signal them to move in and assist.†Gerald said eagerly.

“Second warship moving into attack posture.†Chekov warned.

“This is starting to look like an unfriendly place gentlemen.†Kirk said.

“Long range sensors are reading the arrival of another ship and a dozen other small vessels...it appears to be a fleet sir.†Urhura reported.

“We can’t take them all sir,†Scotty said, “Not in this condition.â€

“I don’t think we can outrun them though.†Sulu said. “Our warp engines are still damaged.â€

“We don’t know that.†Kirk said. “They still have primitive fusion drives. Scotty, how much power do you predict they can get from them?â€

Scotty shrugged, “Assuming they don’t have any sort of enhanced warp field coils that we don’t, warp one, maybe warp two sir.â€

“How mucn can you coax from the engines Scotty?†Kirk asked.

“Warp three sir, best I can give you right now.â€

Kirk nodded, “Do it. If we’re lucky, they won’t be able to follow us for long.â€

“Aye sir, setting course.â€

“One more thing.†Kirk said. “Prepare a torpedo for the aft launcher. Five megatons. I wouldn’t want Mister Fett to think that we’ve forgotten about him.â€

“The ship is breaking off sir.†the commander reported.

“It’s trying to escape!†Gerald roared.

“The Devastator will not reach it in time.†tactical said.

“Full power to engines!†Gerald said, “We’re not letting them escape after all this! Have all remaining batteries target their engine in concentrated bursts. With luck, we might be able to break through.â€

“Aye sir.â€

The Merciful’s batteries opened fire, pounding at the aft shields of the retreating Enterprise. The Enterprise returned fire, carving long patterns into the Merciful’s armor. Sparks erupted from the consoles and lights began to flicker. Countless damage reports starting coming in all over the ship, but Gerald ignored them, focused entirely on keeping the Enterprise there long enough for the Devastator to finish the job.

It seemed though, that the Enterprise was finally done playing games. Two blue lances struck a hundred meters from the base of the tower bridge, burning their way into the Merciful’s thick hull. Gerald gasped in horror as he watched the phasers cut their way to the heart of the ship’s reactor. Gerald heard–no, felt the explosion. He was thrown onto his ass, watching as entire sections of the Merciful began to break apart.

“Reactor is suffering a critical failure!†the commander yelled. “If we don’t shut it down, the Merciful is going to explode!â€

“If we shut it down, the Enterprise will escape!†Gerald roared as he leapt to his feet. “Keep pursuing! Give me every gigajoule to the engines!â€

“We have eighty seconds before the reactor tears us apart!†the commander snapped, “Sir, as first officer, I recommend that we power down our reactor.â€

“And lose the Enterprise?†Gerald said, “I am not going to explain that to Lord Vader!â€

“If you don’t,†the commander yelled, “Then you will be explaining how you lost the Enterprise and the Merciful to Vader!â€

That snapped Gerald out of his insanity. He slowly nodded, “Commander, shut down the main reactor. Emergency hazard and repair teams to damaged sections. Inform medical bay to expect heavy casualties.â€

The commander nodded, obviously relieved. “Aye sir, I’m ordering the engineers to shut down the reactor.â€

Gerald looked at the display as the Enterprise broke away from them and the pursuing Devastator. Then to his horror, he saw as the ship fired another one of its torpedoes. It was moving fast; far too fast for the Merciful to evade even if its engines were working at full capacity. His heart stopped as the torpedo closed in. He looked out the observation window of the bridge, watching as the brilliant blue sphere charged straight at them–and passed by. It missed by a full five meters over the control bridge. Gerald watched, almost in disbelief as the torpedo kept flying.

It seems that fate had found him fortunate.

Boba watched as Slave I ascended into the atmosphere of Tatooine, her engines roaring as she put as much distance between her and Jaba’s Palace as its engines could. He had awoken some time after Kirk had struck him, in unbelievable agony. His jaw and nose were broken, several of his ribs were broken, and the gods know what else was broken. But he was alive–that’s all that mattered. And when he found that son of a bitch, he’d make him regret ever setting foot on Tatooine.

Slave I had just passed out of the cloud layer when a bright blue pulse flew by him. He groaned and adjusted the sensor on the back to give him a feed of what the object was. It looked terribly similar to the energy weapons that the Enterprise had used on the palace. But to his horror, the advance sensors on Slave I found it to be a torpedo of some sort, with a strange energy signature that it didn’t recognize. It detonated a few kilometers above the palace and within seconds a great big ball of fire erupted from the clouds below Slave I, flattening against the ceiling of the sky, just meters below Boba.

His heart still thumping, Boba frantically scanned for the Enterprise, but to his relief, it had fled. The space above him was filled of Imperial ships–five of which, including an Imperial Star Destroyer, were in the worst shape he had ever seen an Imperial ship in. Boba was starting to get the feeling that this ‘Starfleet’–whatever it was, was a great deal more dangerous than he had given them credit for.

Great chapter, but Kirk should have taken Boba captive...

 

Then beamed him into space...

To be fair, a megaton warhead tends to kill most people.

When the heck are we getting to read the following chapters?

 

 

 

Get to it, NOW...

I just posted chapter three and I've done some work on chapter four. Sorry for the delay.

Mith, I believe. And, while I enjoyed it, Meh. I hated the idea of Boba Fett being that horrible of a criminal.

Well, he's the same guy who as a child, was persuaded to destroy a ship just to kill the guy who killed his father. I would presume that he's probably pretty fucked up as an adult.

EDIT

To explain myself more clearly. Boba clearly does a great deal of jobs for Jabba and he clearly spends more than a few weeks at a time at his palace or at some sort of Jabba owned facility. And we all know how much Jabba loves his slaves. Slavery is in fact, common on Tatooine if I recall correctly. Boba has probably had his own share of such women. Now to be fair, the ones he probably takes to bed most often have probably been slaves for some time now and have been broken down to the point where having someone as handsome as Boba is probably a highlight of their day, compared to say, Greedo.

So the concept of taking women against their will isn't all that evil for someone like Boba. For the culture he has been dropped into, it's probably not all that bad. I mean, Anakin's stepfather basically bought his mother. I mean, he was a good guy and treated her right, but that doesn't change the fact that this is clearly acceptable on their planet.

So long as it's a slave.

On the other hand, I will admit that I really just did it out of the fact that I have a rather sadistic streak. If any of you doubt me, ask Aratech if he has a copy of the page-long recommendation to how to break down someone playing a Lawful Stupid Paladin.

It's rather inspiring I think.

All said and done however, I did take into account that this would be a reasonable thing that Boba might do, given his cultural background. Remember that in some cultures (albiet more...barbaric), raping a woman isn't always a crime. In the case of a Greek myth regarding the god of the sea, he raped a priestess named Medusa of the goddess of war in her own temple.

The woman however, was the one that the goddess punished by turning her into a gorgon.

That's not to say, that under any condition that I approve or support anything like this. I'm simply pointing out some rather...disturbing facts of human history.

Chapter Three

Consequences

“Firing sequence complete,†Styles reported, “Columbia has landed and is dropping off away team.â€

“Monitor them,†Sulu said.

“Sir,†Styles said, “Six ships in orbit have responded to our attacks. They’re powering their weapons and raising shields.â€

“Tactical analysis?â€

“Sensors suggest some type of raider or patrol ship,†Styles said, “They’re no match for us sir.â€

“Signal them to stand down,†he turned to an engineer, “Shield status?â€

“Shields are at nineteen percent sir,†he reported.

“Great,†Sulu muttered.

“They’re not answering hails sir,†Uhura said.

“Phasers?â€

“Phaser banks one and three are operational, but we only have one forward launcher.†Styles said grimly.

“Raise shields, prepare firing solution.†Sulu said, “Urhura, inform the captain.â€

The bridge crew leapt into action, “Captain gives his approval for whatever force you deem necessary to defend the Enterprise,†Uhura said.

“Firing solution complete,†Styles said.

“Fire!â€

The Enterprise’s forward phaser bank spat half a dozen quick lances of blue light, nailing each of the ships turning them into spinning balls of fire. Sulu shook his head as he sat back, watching the balls of flame descend down to the large stretch of desert that covered the planet.

-----------------------

“Put this in there too.†Ben said, tossing him a fusion lamp.

“Do we really need all this stuff?†Luke asked as he stuffed lamp into the trunk.

“We have to be prepared,†Ben said as he rummaged through some old things, “The journey is long to the Degaba System.â€

“The Degaba-what?†Luke asked.

“You’ll see,†Ben said as he pulled handed Luke another bundle of clothes.

“What about my father?†Luke asked, “You promised to tell me about my father.â€

Ben paused, seeming as if he were ten years older, “Yes…I suppose I did.â€

“My uncle never told me much about him,†Luke said.

“I imagine that he wouldn’t,†Ben said, shaking his head, “He was a good man…but a little too stiff neck for my tastes.â€

“What do you mean?†Luke asked.

“He never wanted you to learn that your father was a Jedi Knight.†Ben said.

“A Jedi? My dad?†Luke asked.

Ben smiled, “Yes, your father was my apprentice.â€

“You’re a Jedi?†Luke asked, his eyes widening.

Ben smiled, “Of course.â€

“And you trained my father?â€

Ben smiled, “Yes…he was my greatest apprentice. The best that the order had ever seen.â€

“But my uncle told me that my father died,†Luke said.

“He did,†Ben said, his eyes going to the floor, “…Darth Vader. He was another apprentice of mine. He had fallen to the dark side. He murdered your father and betrayed me.â€

“Why?†Luke asked.

Ben shook his head, “He thought that he could solve his problems with power—and the dark side offered it to him.â€

“What happened to him?†Luke asked.

“He’s alive—or as alive as a man like him can be,†Ben said, “He serves the Emperor now.â€

------------------------

“Do whatever is necessary to protect the Enterprise,†Kirk said into the communicator, his eyes locked onto the counter of the elevator as they descended deep. “Are the transporters up yet?â€

“Not yet sir,†Uhura said, “Mister Scott says that it’ll take at least another fifteen minutes.â€

“He has nine,†Kirk said.

“Aye sir.â€

“Kirk out,†Kirk said, flipping the communicator closed.

“Are you sure that was wise Jim?†Bones asked, “If they traced that signal…â€

“It is likely that they already know we activated one of their lifts,†Spock said, “Assuming their security measures are anything like ours.â€

“A good thing to assume,†Kirk said.

“We are approaching the level of what I believe to be the cells,†Spock reported, “My sensor readings indicate that there are a dozen life forms gathering near the lift doors.â€

Kirk nodded, “They’re hoping to ambush us,†he said, “Everyone, away from the doors. When these doors open, they’re going to fire at us with everything they’ve got.â€

Acting quickly, they all pressed themselves flat against the wall, “What are we going to do like this Captain?†Jason asked, “We won’t be able to return fire like this.â€

“Stun grenades,†Kirk said, “Everyone. Take them out and when these doors open, toss them out as quickly and as hard as you can. If we’re lucky, we should get all of them.â€

“Nine seconds.†Spock warned as he let his tricorder hang and pulled out a stun grenade, “We will have to make this count.â€

Kirk pulled out his own grenade and watched as everyone else readied their own, his heart pounding against his cage. He counted the last few agonizingly slow seconds. With a soft ding, the doors opened. In unison, they all tossed out five small silver cylinders through a dark hallway where over a dozen men stood readied with assault rifles. Red bolts erupted through the air and hit the back of the lift wall, quickly burning several dozen black craters into it, melting away a large circular hole into the thin metal walls and burning the metal shaft behind it.

Multiple flashes went off then, followed by cries of agony.

Silence filled the air.

“Everyone out!†Kirk yelled, quickly dashing out of cover, his eyes scanning for anyone still standing. One man stood at the farthest end of the downed pack, grabbing at his head and stumbling around like a drunkard. Kirk didn’t hesitate; he shot the man in the chest and dropped him like a sack of bricks, then hurried into the hall.

“I am not detecting anymore life signs in the corridor,†Spock reported, “But I cannot be sure. We must approach with caution.â€

“Can you find Shelby?†Kirk asked.

“No sir,†Spock said, “but the area is not large. I suggest we split into teams.â€

Kirk nodded, “Good plan. Jason and Spock will head down the left corridor. Thomas and Bones, you take the right. I’ll take the one down the middle.â€

“Captain, I must cite protocol regarding…â€

“Not now Mister Spock.†Kirk said, continuing ahead, “Maintain radio silence unless you find Shelby or meet with considerable resistance. Is that clear?â€

“Yes sir.†Both his officers answered.

Kirk walked ahead, his eyes and ears searching for any sign of an enemy. As he passed by the first few cells, he noted half a dozen in each. Many were tough-looking aliens with scars, missing limbs, and even eyes or tongues. No doubt merchants or enemies who had crossed the crime lord, he guessed. Ignoring them, he pressed on, deeper into the hallways. As he approached near the end of the area however, he began to find less and less tough looking characters and more women who were clearly pleasure slaves.

The last cell however, contained Shelby, lying on the ground sobbing; wearing what little remained of her uniform. Kirk felt his face go red with rage even as relief washed over him that she was alive. He ran to the panel next to the cell and quickly deactivated the force-field holding her in.

“Lieutenant Shelby,†he said, dropping to her side.

She looked up at him in a mixture of confusion and amazement, “C-Captain?â€

“Can you walk?†he asked, “We need to get you out of here.â€

“I—Y-yes, yes I think so.â€

“Good,†Kirk said, helping her to her feet, “I promise lieutenant, I’ll make them pay for this,†he said. He reached for his communicator, flipped it open, and opened a channel, but before he could speak, he heard Spock’s voice.

“Captain,†he said, “We are under attack, it seems that Miser Fett is attempt to secure the lieutenant.â€

“I have her,†Kirk said, “You and Jason fall back to the main hallway. We’ll meet you there. That goes for you too Bones.â€

“Aye sir.†Spock said.

“Sir,†McCoy said, “What about these aliens? We can’t just leave them—â€

“You can and you will Doctor,†Kirk said, “the Prime Directive still applies.â€

“…Yes sir.â€

Kirk flipped his communicator shut, “Let’s go,†he said. Shelby nodded and the two of them took off down the hall. From far off, he could hear the sound of plasma bolts filling the air and the occasional sound of a phaser returning fire. Moments later, they reached the crossing.

“Get to the lift,†he instructed the lieutenant, “I’ll wait for the others.â€

“Yes sir.â€

Kirk took a deep breath and took a position near the left wall, leaning out just far enough to see. Smoke had already filled the air, making it difficult to see. A figure came around the corner. To the captain’s relief, it was Spock, running flat down the hallway and ducking around the corner.

“Captain,†Spock said, “I am being pursued.â€

“Jason?†he asked.

“Dead,†Spock said, “He took five plasma rounds to his back when two of Mister Fett’s men flanked us.â€

“Captain!†McCoy yelled as he and Thomas came up, “What the hell is going on?â€

“Trouble,†Kirk said, he gestured to Shelby, “Tend to her, Thomas, take up Mister Spock’s position.â€

The security officer quickly relived Spock of his post, then Kirk gestured for the Vulcan to come to his side, “These cells all seem to be operating on a force field, am I correct?†he asked.

“That is correct sir,†he said.

“Is there a way for us to disrupt the power flow?†Kirk asked, “If we can release the inhabitants, perhaps they might provide a distraction long enough for us—â€

Kirk was cut off by a string of plasma bolts that rang down the corridor. Cursing, Kirk drew back behind the wall, then back out just enough to return fire with his phaser rifle. He caught one man in the leg and another two men in the chest before falling back as more men appeared through the smoke.

“We can’t stay here Jim!†McCoy yelled.

Kirk nodded, “Everyone back into the lift!†he yelled. Grabbing his last stun grenade, he pressed the charge button, ricocheted it off the wall. A split second later, a loud bang and a flash filled the corridor. He signaled the ensign across. The ensign made a quick dash, narrowly avoiding three plasma bolts. They four of them then fell back to the lift. The door closed just as two men emerged into the hallway and opened fire.

The lift began to move upwards, far, far away from danger.

“Mister Spock?†he asked.

“I have locked the controls at the bottom of the lift and I do not detect any life forms near the top,†he said.

Kirk nodded, then turned to Shelby, who stood in the corner of the lift with McCoy. After whispering something into her ear, he moved over to Kirk, “She’s traumatized Jim,†he said quietly, “but she’ll live.â€

Kirk felt himself go stiff, “Good.†He whispered back.

“We need to get her back to the ship sir,†McCoy said, “What that barbarian did is going to scar her for the rest of her life.â€

“He’ll pay for it,†he said, “I promise you that much.â€

*****

Wermis watched as the Devastator’s forward batteries barraged the small Blockade Runner. Numerous holes covered the small ship’s hull, burnt and torn away by laser fire. The Devastator was slowly closing the gap.

“Keep the heavy cannons trained on them Commander,†Vader said, “If they show the first hint of escaping, I want them vaporized.â€

“They cannot escape us Lord Vader,†Wermis said, letting a slight hint of annoyance slip into his voice, “Their hyperdrive sustained heavy damage. They will not be able to escape us.â€

“Do not let your arrogance cloud you Captain,†Vader warned, “If they escape, it will be you who explains this failure to the Emperor.â€

Wermis swallowed; the Emperor was not forgiving to those who failed him, “They will not escape my lord.â€

“Captain,†the Commander reported, “The Merciful has entered the system, they will arrive in fifteen minutes.â€

Wermis snorted; Vader never trusted him to do anything, “Very good Commander,†he said, “We suspect there may be troops dirtside, advise them to be ready for a ground assault.â€

“There’s…err, one more thing Captain.â€

Wermis gave him a curious look; he didn’t like the sound of the Commander’s voice, “What is it?†he snapped.

“We’ve received a distress signal from Lord Jabba,†the Commander said, “He says that he has come under attack from pirates. He’s requesting immediate assistance.â€

Wermis snorted, “Ignore him, we have better things to do than to worry about Jabba’s problems.â€

“Belay that order Commander,†Vader said, stepping forward, “The Emperor and the Hutts have a standing peace treaty. Order the Merciful to engage their attackers and prepare for any further assistance. We will handle the ground assault.â€

“My Lord,†Wermis said, “With all due respect, we should secure the planet before running to help the Hutts. The Eclipse and the Avenger will be here in fourty-three minutes, one of them could handle…â€

“My orders have been given Commander,†Vader said, ignoring Wermis, “Carry them out.â€

“Y-yes Lord Vader.†The Commander said, casting a nervous and apologetic look to Wermis. Wermis nodded, then turned and started down the bridge, ignoring the eyes of the mechanical monster at his back.

“Their shields have failed my Lord,†he said moving to a panel and tapping instructions, “Storm Troopers will be meeting them at the hatch.â€

“Very good,†Lord Vader said, turning to leave, “I will see to it personally.â€

Wermis felt himself go pale, “That…that won’t be necessary my Lord.†He said.

“It will.†Was all the Sith Lord said before he vanished through the doors.

Wermis cursed under his breath.

*****

“They’ve escaped,†one of the guards told Boba.

Boba responded by putting a plasma bolt through the man’s neck, “Wrong answer,†he snarled.

He came to a halt at the lift, scowling. He’d never make it back up in time. He tapped the comm. on his arm, “This is Boba,†he said, “The intruders are heading back to the main level. Stop them at all costs. If they escape, their ship is going to fry us, understood?â€

He then switched to Jabba’s sanctuary, “Hey eggheads,†he said, “As soon as that lift stops, wait ten seconds and then send it back down, clear?â€

“We’re still having trouble overriding it sir.â€

“Do it or your dead.â€

“Y-yes sir.â€

He closed the channel and stared up at the indicator. He counted the seconds until it stopped, then counted to ten. Nothing happened. He opened his channel, “Where is it?†he demanded.

“We’re trying sir…just a few more seconds.â€

“In a few more seconds I’m going to make my way to you and but a blaster hole through your—â€

The indicator started to decline, “Its coming sir!†the engineer squealed from the other end of the comm.

“Good boy,†he said, “keep the channel open. When I say ‘up’ send the lift to the top floor, is that clear?â€

“Yes sir.â€

The doors opened and Boba and three men rushed in. The bounty hunter quickly punched in the main floor and watched as the indicator grew higher. His hands eagerly caressed the pistols at his side. This would have to be quick and clean. If he got bogged down, he’d be dead. Their captain would be sure to see to that.

“Set your weapons to stun,†he said, “I don’t want any of you idiots killing the girl by accident.â€

The men quickly adjusted their weapons.

“What about you boss?†one of them asked.

“Shut up.â€

The doors opened. Already a firefight had broken out. Boba could see a man in blue holding one of their strange weapons was ducking down next to the woman, firing over the side to keep the security forces at bay. From the far right were blue energy beams leaping out, no doubt the location of their enemies.

At the sight of the two, the man in the blue cursed and fired. Boba threw himself to the side, allowing the blue beam to catch his fellow in the chest. The man screamed and fell back, a large hole burned into his chest. The other two men growled and fired, catching the man in the chest with two round blue energy pulses, dropping him. The woman screamed, but another volley silenced her as well.

“Forward!†Boba barked as he rushed and grabbed the girl, “Get her to the ship,†he told one of the men, then to the other, “Hold them off.â€

They weren’t two paces when he heard the man scream a warning. Boba turned and fired blindly; forcing a long eared man I blue to roll out of the way. Cursing, Boba reached for a detonator and threw it down the hall. It exploded, sending shrapnel everywhere. He ran into the lift, “Up!†he yelled, “Up!â€

The doors closed and the lift started to ascend once more, “We’re going to my ship,†he told the man, “Tie her up and put her in the cargo hold,†he instructed him, “We’re getting the hell out of here.â€

“Aye sir.â€

The woman slowly started to stir awake. Boba pointed his pistol square in her face, “Good to have you back honey,†he purred, “Now you’re going to come nice and easy or I’m going to blow your head wide open, understand?â€

The woman quivered. Boba grinned behind his helmet, “Thata girl,†he said, “I’ll be sure to repay your Captain for what he’s done. And I’m sure Jabba is going to have a go too.â€

The woman began to shake. Boba chuckled. The door opened to the shuttle bay. Boba led the way, a smile playing on his lips. All he had to do was get to hyperspace and there would be no tracking him.

*****

“Spock!†Kirk yelled as he grabbed at the bleeding officer, “Spock!â€

“I’m fine Captain,†Spock said, pushing himself up, “it seems Mister Fett was a little more resourceful than we thought.â€

“Damn him,†Kirk growled.

“I can’t hold them sir!†Thomas called from down the hall, “We’ll be overrun!â€

Kirk pulled out his communicator and flipped it open, “Kirk to Enterprise, Kirk to Enterprise!â€

“Enterprise here Captain,†Urhura said.

“Has Scotty gotten those transporters up yet?†Kirk asked.

“Hold on a minute,†Urhura said.

“No, connect me to him,†Kirk said.

“Yes sir.â€

“Scotty?†Kirk said, “Do you have those transporters up yet?â€

“I was just about to test her,†Scotty said, “Is something wrong?â€

“Mister Spock is injured. I need an immediate beam up.â€

“I can’t run him through without testing it sir,†Scotty protested, “He could die.â€

“He will die if you don’t beam him up now!†Kirk yelled.

“Alright sir, I’ll do my best.†Scotty said, “Locking onto his coordinates.â€

Kirk watched as a yellow haze covered the Vulcan’s body. A moment later, his body vanished. Kirk waited for what seemed like eons before Scotty reported, “I got him sir. I can beam the rest of ya up whenever you’re ready.â€

“Beam Mister Thomas and Bones back to the Enterprise,†Kirk said, “But first, beam me up to the level the lift near me stops at. Near the entrance.â€

“What? What for Captain?â€

“Just do it Scotty.†Kirk barked, “Prepare for a beam out as soon as I give the signal.â€

“Aye sir.â€

The world turned into a yellow haze as the transporter beam disassembled his body. A moment later, he rematerialized in what looked to be a large bay of some sort, with dozens of ships being loaded onto by numerous thugs eager to escape.

Kirk scanned the area for Shelby and Boba—and found them only a dozen paces away. Shelby was being dragged along by a large muscular green man with twin-tentacle-like-hair. Without hesitating, Kirk raised his phaser rifle and fired, dropping the man dead. He turned to fire on Boba, but the bounty hunter had already spun around and returned fire, hitting his rifle in the barrel and sending it flying out of his hands.

Cursing, Kirk rolled for cover behind some nearby barrels, plasma burning through floor, wall, and barrels as he did. He reached for his phaser pistol and came up, returning fire. Boba rolled out of the way, this time bringing up two pistols to fire. Kirk gave more ground, coming up every now and again to keep the bounty hunter from pressing his advantage.

“You’re a fast one, aren’t you Captain,†Boba gloated, “I didn’t think you Starfleet pansies could run so fast—oh yeah, I know who you are. Shelby told me everything…After some convincing of course.†Kirk felt his body go hot with rage. His hands shook uncontrollably. “This Federation of yours…it must be a really sad place if bleeding hearts like you are in charge.â€

“Really?†Kirk said, “Is that what you were saying when you were cowering in this hole while my ship blasted your fortress back to the stone age?â€

The bounty hunter chuckled, “I don’t know what sort of ship you’ve got up there Captain,†he said, “But it’s not in proper hands. If you had any balls you would have vaporized us as soon as our shields were down. Instead you’ve risked yourself and your crew for this weak, pathetic woman.â€

“I don’t think so,†Kirk said, slowly edging towards the end of the barrels. If he was lucky, he’d be able to get a clear shot.

“No?†Boba said, “Your ship is advanced—I’ll give you that Captain. But it’s no match for the Imperial Star Destroyer on its way.â€

Kirk felt his heart skip a beat, “Maybe.†He said, then rolled out and pointed his phaser to fire and—froze.

Boba had one pistol pointed at Shelby’s panicked head and the other at him, “End of the line Captain.†He said, “Surrender.â€

“No Captain!†Shelby yelled, “Don’t do it, he’ll—â€

The bounty hunter kicked her in the back, “That’s enough out of you.â€

Kirk dropped his phaser.

“Slide it over.†Boba said, “Nice and gently.â€

Kirk nodded and gently and slid it across the floor to Boba’s feet with his foot, “You’ll never get away with this.†He said.

“Is that all you people ever say?†Boba asked, then without waiting for an answer, he gestured to his communicator “Now order your crew to surrender.â€

Kirk pulled his communicator free and tossed it to the floor, halfway between them. “Tell them yourself.†he sneered. “Fine,†he said, then gave Shelby a sharp kick in the back, “Get it.†He barked.

Shelby crawled on hands and knees to the communicator and picked it up, “Call the ship,†he said, “Order them to surrender.â€

Shelby looked from Boba, then to Kirk, who nodded slowly. Swallowing, she opened the communicator, “Sh-Shelby to Enterprise,†she said.

“Scotty here Capt—wait, Shelby?†the other end said, “Lass! I thought you were dead when you didn’t beam up with the others! What in blue blazes is going on down there?â€

“Enough!†Boba growled, “Order them to surrender!â€

“Surrender?†Scotty said, “Who is that? Where’s the Captain?â€

“Scotty!†Kirk snapped, then he turned back to Shelby, only to find her body engulfed in yellow shimmering light, “What in the...†he yelled.

Kirk reached behind his back and snapped free a photon grenade. Pressing it, he threw it as hard as he could over the bounty hunter and dove for cover. A moment later, a brilliant explosion illuminated the room, throwing barrels every which way and heating the room so much that Kirk’s clothes stuck to him like glue.

As the flash died away, the captain rolled to his feet and looked over to see Boba gasping in pain, tearing away large chunks of melting armor that had covered his chest. Then finally, he tossed away his helmet, revealing a tanned face with short black hair. He glowered at Kirk, his burnt gloves curled in fists, “So that’s the way it’s going to be.†He said.

Kirk raised his own fists. The two of them slowly closed in, circling each other, seeking an opening. Kirk lunged first, narrowly catching the bounty hunter in the head, but he ducked away, bringing his own fist and connecting with Kirk’s jaw. Kirk took the blow in stride and brought his other fist into the man’s stomach. The man gasped and stumbled backwards. Kirk followed up with a jump kick, planting his foot into the man’s chest.

He stumbled backwards again, hacking up a curse as he gasped for air. Kirk rushed forward again, leading with another fist, but the man blocked it, and came forward with an elbow into Kirk’s chest. He gasped, and stumbled backwards. The bounty hunter quickly spun into a round-house, sending the captain rolling onto the ground. Boba rushed forward, aiming a boot at Kirk’s head, but Kirk quickly brought his own arms up to protect himself, partially deflecting the blow.

Boba growled in frustration and lifted his foot up again, but Kirk had rolled away by the time he had brought his foot down with a loud bang on the floor. The bounty hunter rushed forward to try and strike the captain before he could reach his feet, but Kirk went into a double roll, foiling Boba’s guessed kick and coming gracefully to his feet.

“Not bad,†Boba said as he brought his fists up again, “And here I thought you Starfleet types were all soft.â€

Kirk’s response was a fist to the face. Boba deflected it and returned in kind, but Kirk had already moved to his right, narrowly avoiding the blow. They circled each other, delivering several blows. Many missed or were deflected, but those that did hit made heavy impacts, blooding the faces of both opponents. When Boba opened himself after a particularly large lunge, Kirk took the opportunity and struck, but to his amazement, the bounty hunter spun away from his blow and came to his left. Before Kirk could recover, he felt the man’s fist connect to the side of his head.

Boba rushed forward, grabbing Kirk from behind, his arms eagerly wrapping around his neck to break it. Kirk struggled, desperately trying to throw the bounty hunter off, but his grip was like iron. Boba held tight, dragging Kirk closer and tearing the man’s yellow uniform, his arm wrapped around his neck, his hand moving to the base of his head, “Like to wax your chest, eh capt—â€

The back of Kirk’s neck met with Boba’s nose, crumpling it. Boba screamed, but held on. He was rewarded with a second contact and then a third, sending him stumbling backwards. Kirk spun around his fist connecting with the side of Boba’s head.

“Nothing’s too good for the ladies,†he said, before delivering a kick to the man’s jaw, shattering it and dropping him to the ground, unconscious.

Panting, Kirk turned around, looking for a ship to take, but already most of them had left at the sight of violence. The remaining men in the bay were scrambling for whatever sort of transports remained. Reaching down, Kirk began to search Boba. Finally, he found what he wanted in one of his pockets; one of the stolen communicators.

Quickly adjusting the settings, he made contact, “Enterprise, this is Kirk, do you read me? Enterprise!â€

“This is Sulu sir,†he heard the communicator say, “It’s good to hear you’re alive sir. Shelby told us that that bounty hunter had you pinned. We were just about to beam some men in to assist you.â€

“No need,†Kirk said, giving Boba a rough kick, “He won’t be giving us anymore trouble. Prepare to beam me up.â€

“Aye sir.â€

How stupid are you?

 

 

 

A fireball... IN SPACE?

 

 

 

It's not like there's not plenty of resources on the internet describing what nuclear weapons in space are like. Its not like there referenced on this board.

 

 

 

EDIT: To clarify, in space, nukes, just like virtually everything else, are contact or near contact weapons.

 

 

 

Also, as a side note. If I want a 50-ton explosion out of a missile, I don't need 11-tons of explosives to pull it off. Nukes get that small.

First off, as far as a 50 ton explosive missile--that'd be fine if Archer Missiles weren't directly indicated to be high chemical weapons. Unfortunately, they are high chemical and are therefore limited to their capabilities. A 10 ton warhead for each of them is actually probably pretty generous nor is it something for anyone to sneeze at. Any frigate or destroyer firing a full volley of them would probably level a modern day city. MAC or no.

As for your point on nukes in space, Atomic Rockets was working off between 1 kiloton to 1 megaton nuclear warheads for this:

As far as warhead mass goes, Anthony Jackson says the theoretical limit on mass for a fusion warhead is about 1 kilogram per megaton. No real-world system will come anywhere close to that, The US W87 thermonuclear warhead has a density of about 500 kilograms per megaton. Presumably a futuristic warhead would have a density between 500 and 1 kg/Mt. Calculating the explosive yield of a weapon is a little tricky.

 

 

 

For missiles, consider the US Trident missile. Approximately a cylinder 13.41 m in length by 1.055 m in radius, which makes it about 47 cubic meters. Mass of 58,500 kg, giving it a density of 1250 kg/m3. The mass includes eight warheads of approximately 160 kg each.

 

 

 

Wildly extrapolating far beyond the available data, one could naively divide the missile mass by the number of warheads, and divide the result by the mass of an individual warhead. The bottom line would be that a warhead of mass X kilograms would require a missile of mass 45 * X kilograms, and a volume of 0.036 * X cubic meters (0.036 = 45 / 1250). Again futuristic technology would reduce this somewhat.

 

 

 

Nuclear weapons will destroy a ship if they detonate exceedingly close to it. But if it is further away than about a kilometer, it won't do much more than singe the paint job and blind a few sensors. And in space a kilometer is pretty close range.

 

 

 

Please understand: I am NOT saying that nuclear warheads are ineffective. I am saying that the amount of damage they inflict falls off very rapidly with increasing range. At least much more rapidly than with the same sized warhead detonated in an atmosphere.

 

 

 

But if the nuke goes off one meter from your ship, your ship will probably be vaporized. Atmosphere or no.

I would have presumed that a 30 megaton bomb would have done something larger. But I was probably wrong (although, it was mentioned that these were "vacuum enhanced" nukes, whatever the fuck that means). Even so, 1 kilometer does not drastically help. It simply doubles the mines required:

Length: 6 30 Megaton nukes

Height: 2 30 Megaton nuke

Width: 4 30 Megaton nukes.

The yield overall is probably going to be more or less the same. Like I said, you want to throw the largest net possible to ensure destruction. And that's not even including the ships next to you that might cause more damage because they go boom.

And on that note a screen shot of Archer Missile Pods from Halo: Reach I found:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Archer Missiles are nuclear weapons.

False Dillema fallacy. Those images means one of three things:

A) That the Archer Missiles use nuclear fuel to reach targets.

That SHIVAs and other nuclear weapons can be fired from the same pods as Archer Missiles.

C) Both.

B is probably the most likely possibility. While it is true that it could mean that Archer Missiles are nukes, it doesn't exactly directly indicate that they are. This is especially true if we're told in other sources that their Archer Missiles are not nuclear weapons. It's also rather curious how ships could run out of their nuclear weapons so quickly--and indeed only carry two or three at a time. I mean hell, the frigate that escorted Noble 5 and 6 presumably had some Archer's left right? Why didn't they consider those nuclear weapons?

You seem to be of this belief that low-yield nukes don't count as nuclear weapons. That's not the case. If those were nuclear weapons, they'd be called nuclear weapons--albiet low yield nukes. However, the novels and the games clearly show a defining difference between typical UNSC anti-ship weaponry and nuclear weapons. It is highly illogical to assume that they are nukes, especially when we're told that material for nukes has become rarer as the war waged on.

So no, they aren't nuclear weapons. They can probably fire nukes, but that doesn't make Archers nukes.

You know what I mean. The plasma explanation would be better for the Trek side because 1. It would mean that SW shielding is likely not designed to deal with Phaser/Disruptor type weapons. 2. Trek shields CAN defend against Plasma weapons because those kind of weapons are well known in the Trek galaxy. Hell also appears to be getting a bit frosty because I find myself skeptical of an idea which is beneficial to my side of the argument and actually defending Wong's explanation regarding TLs and plasma. I think it's a sign of the apocalypse.

Actually, funny story. According to some things dug up over at Starfleet Jedi, the closest thing to phasers/disruptors in Star Wars penetrates right through SW shielding. They literally have no defense against it.

Wait, an idea just came. Since plasma gives off EM radiation, the light emanating from the turbolaser bolts would have a specific frequency. The same goes for thermal, or infrared radiation, which is what's known best as heat, and also has a pretty specific frequency. Given that we know that phaser beams are nadions, but also emit EM radiation, and the it was stated that the Borg adapted mostly to the EM radiation's frequency (Best of Both Worlds mentioned something about the upper EM band being hard for the Borg to adapt to) and that the phasers were being fired, with those EM frequencies, that shows that the Borg adapt to thing with EM frequencies that aren't light/radiation-based weapons. Would this also mean that the Borg could adapt to turbolasers as well?

Alright, this seems to be a brain bug.

Borg adaption isn't just based on frequency. That's mention very often because UFP weapons use frequency. However, It's started to become a brain bug that they can ONLY adapt to frequency. That's not true. Adaption is simply them doing what they can to optimize their defensive and offensive abillities against a particular weapon or defense. It's not all that different from what we do. The difference is that the Borg can implement this a great deal faster than we can.

In reality, the Borg are going to adapt to some degree no matter what, it's just remains to be asked how effective that adaption is. Now if it is plasma, the Borg will have an easier time adapting to it--the least of which is probably due to the massive shielding and offensive abilities they have in relation to SW. In short, the Empire would be up shit creek if a Borg cube decided to start assimilating things left and right.

No, IIRC 300 is the number given for Archer Missile Pods on Cruisers since since even a Frigate in 2525 had a total of 780 Archer missiles:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the Covenant ship in question is stated to be a third the size of the Commonwealth when it jumps in front of it.

That's still 390 kilotons at best. And less given that laser defenses tend to reduce them by about half. So in actuality we're talking about 195 kilotons. That pushes it up a bit, but we're still hampered by the 7.5 Megaton limit that the mines introduce. And that's high end. The energy intensity of the mines will decrease the farther away you are. And only what, two of those ships survived?

And that's assuming 50 tons--which is absurdly generous given that the largest, most powerful conventinal bomb ever detonated was 44 tons--though US officials seem to think it's probably closer to 16 tons rather than 44. Of course, those are bombs. As in, the stuff you drop on people. Where most of the weight is a bomb, rather than a missile. And those bombs are fucking huge by the way.

So in all reality, it could easily fall back down to a few 7.8 kilotons for a full missile--but no higher than 10-50 tons of firepower each.

EDIT: A note on the Russian FOAB, it seems to be me that it's very possible the Russians lied somewhat. According to officials, it couldn't have been dropped by the bomber suggested in the vid, the bomb's yield claim itself is in question, and it's possible it's not really all that new either.

Not hard to believe given it supposedly has the same mass as the US MOAB of 11 tons. And again, bomb. Missiles are not going to have the same oomph that a bomb has.

Ships would receive a small fraction of the nukes' particle energy if they were detonated at a distance. If Covenant ships have a firepower in the low hundred terajoule range tops, it's impossible for MACs to range in the megaton. Only the SMAC should.

 

And considering how a SMAC is more or less a long range sitting duck cannon, any advanced species which knows where to FTL in a system close to a targeted planet will have a clear LOS at the SMAC and blow it to confetti before it can even point its cannon in the right direction.

Indeed. The Haloites do have one thing going for them in that Covenant ships typically stay in a tight formation. But that's still rather presumptious in assuming they fly right into a cluster of bombs (oddly enough, they couldn't detect that--note that Kirk's Enterprise was able to pick up a nuke hidden in debris and was able to respond to it).

Looking at Wong's fireball size for a 30 megaton bomb, it says roughly 2.1 kilometers for an airburst fireball. Assuming that remains as is per space, it suggests that the UNSC is going to want that to engulf the small fleet as much as possible. But they'd also want to throw the biggest net they have. Given the size of a Covenant BBC (1.7 kilometers)and the size, this would mean that only one nuke detonated would be able to hit the ship at any time, though it might burn the nose of another ship. But Covenant fleet deployments typically look like schools of fish, with ships below, in front, above, and behind other ships. Now, this was a small fleet, so we're probably not looking at anything more than three ships front and back, with maybe one ship on top or at bottom. We're also probably looking about three across in width. Assuming they were all ass-hugging, it would be:

Length: 5.1 kilometers

Height: 690 meters

Width: 2.586 kilometers

But chances are, there's going to be some room between them. Right now, let's assume a uniform of 300 meters in every dimension.

Length: 5.7 kilometers

Height: 1.290 kilometers

Width: 3.186 kilometers

Now, in order to get most of those ships, we have to assume that the Captain needed to wait until the middle of the fleet had passed into the minefield. Unfortunately, for that to work, he'd need at least 3 mines to cover that area safely. But since the height is easily within nuke range, they'd only need say, one nuke to safely ensure that they get the entire fleet. The width of course, would require two mines.

Length: 3 30 Megaton nukes

Height: 1 30 Megaton nuke

Width: 2 30 Megaton nukes.

So to cover roughly 6 by 2 by 4 kilometers, it would require the use of 6 mines. This would mean that the entire width of the minefield was roughly 8 kilometers (we have to spare here).

Unfortunately because they are nukes, they'd get about a 4th of that energy to start with (7.5 megatons) and it would drastically dwindle the farther away you get from the heart of the explosion. And it should be noted that most of these ships were destroyed. Only two, presumably caught on the edge of the explosion, survived the incident. Even if we assume that the ships had something like, 50% shielding, at most we could give them is 15 megatons at best.

This is however, highly unlikely. It's worth noting that the Covenant uses its defense lasers against high chemical warheads such as Archer Missiles. That suggests that the weapons are to a degree, dangerous--rather unlikely if they had 15 megaton shielding since it would require an up to of 300 missiles to take down their shields. As far as I'm told, ships tend to carry missile pods that range in the high 20s to 30s, with the largest ships carrying 300 missiles.

It would be worth noting that it takes three to one odds to defeat a Covenant ship of similar tactical ability. It's also rather suggested that as of Reach, that MACs are not mission killers for ships, even if they do crippling damage in comparison to all other weapons, so in all likelyhood, yes, their MACs do single digit megatons at best. Mind you, I would probably suggest .5 megatons for your average MAC, no less than .25 megatons.It gives us a reasonable number between the more acceptable high ends and the absurdly low ends.

This might be a fight if we say the NX instead of the E-D. >>

Where did anyone agree that none of the empire's sensors would pick up ST cloaking devices?

Um, they probably can't. The only known counter-measure to a SW cloaking device is to detect their gravity using a very special, very expensive sensor. In TNG, the sensor nets that protected the Federation border from Romulan incursion were in fact, designed to detect gravity. As we learned later, Starfleet decided to replace these (well, not replace actually--probably just added them on) with a new method of detecting the cloaks. This suggests that the former method was very unreliable--proven by the fact that we see ships such as the Defiant passing by other ships scanning for them.

Then again, a hundred ship bombs is a shitload different than a handful of ships.

This is also a rather fucking stupid thread.

This is actually a wonderful scenario for the SW cloak, though. So, I turn it back on you. 100 Galaxy Gun missiles are fitted with SW cloaks programmed to activate after firing and set to detonate based on gravitational readings (trek doesn't know the fusing of course.) they are fired at earth, what do you do?

Well, they'd probably be detected either at the border or by some nearby ship. The problem of course, would be finding all hundred of them. Still, assuming they had enough time to detect them and then set up a defensive network around Earth to detect them, they could probably shoot them all down no problem.

That sentence alone can give credence to both sides. Either it means 30MT total or 30MT yield per mine. Neverthless, if by going by the TNG TM (I prefer to use the TM since at least it gives a figure rather than speculate for eternity for its yield) then a single Photon torpedo has a yield greater than two Hornet mines put together, while a Quantum would be 4x that number of mines.

 

 

 

So a single Photon torpedo can destroy a Covenant warship. In fact it is overkill.

It's 30 megatons per mine. But remember that these ships are probably only going to recieve a fraction of that energy. With multiple mines, we're talking maybe 5-30 megatons. It really all depends on how far the mines were apart from each other. If we assume a smaller area, then that gives us a higher yield, but it means that the UNSC would have less of a window to hurt the ships--ie, 14 mines covers only so much area and putting them closer reduces the useful ability of a minefield. Putting it out wider increases the hit, but lowers the overall yield. It should also be noted that some ships were damaged.

In all likelyhood, we're looking at probably 10-20 megatons. That means MACs probably clock in at single digits and SMACs at double digits, probably closer to a photon torpedo.

Yeah, but even after Reach's "glassing", they were patches of burnt grass on scorched earth, and standing mountains, and no vitrified surfaces.

 

Clearly not all the planet was literally glassed, but the explosions did create firestorms, that much is obvious, which went on and burned surfaces that were untouched by the bombardment.

 

 

 

I read one theory over at SB.com where someone said that the Covenant glassing weapons were a technobabble weapon that got power form oxygen, thus why they were much weaker in space than on a planet...

 

Indeed, in one book, all the UNSC crew of a ship that got hit needed to do the "stop" the plasma from boiling the plating away was to cut the oxygen in the breached compartment, which in turn extinguished the plasma...

Actually, according to the datapads in Reach, the Covenant would require over a thousand ships and thirty years to literally glass a planet the size of Earth. So yeah, it's very unlikely that Reach was literally glassed or any planet for that matter. Given that 30 megaton mines managed to take out Covenant warships and UNSC weapons seem to be limited to double digit megaton range, the Enterprise D should easily tank the ship.

Actually, Mith, I presented a perfectly logical explanation. The fact that you don't like tge implications of that explanation doesn't make it any less valid.

What implications? I have very little opinion on the matter.

It really doesn't matter why the phasers shouldn't cause a shockwave--the fact is that they do and given all the other weird shit that goes one, I wouldn't be surprised. It probably has something to do with the amount of water and subspace physics.

And its my problem how? I fully agree. But for the time being canon supports my position firepower given GoO is lower canon.

Here's a hint; when your trying to pretend that the characters are too stupid to live, then you need to rethink your situation.

I'm sorry, but there's this thing called "canon", when it says that the laws of physics in X universe are slightly different than Y-verse we don't use universe Y's laws of physics in place of univese X's. We assume they continue to work as shown in either universe.

So Trek antimatter is capable of blowing off half the atmosphere.

And linky: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4517844&postcount=60

Oh, so instead of actually taking something like mass reduction and applying it logically to make all the canon fit...you'll be more than happy to make up another aspect of technology specifically to cover your ass.

Nice.

Nice lie, asshole. So lets look at this, shall we?

Hey, tell me what part of that post was a lie.

I put an important part in bold for you. But first: Tell me where it says there was another large explosion that wasn't the Pillar of Autumn's fusion cores going off, please. I clearly must be blind given I don't see it there. Now note the bold part that the explosion put a five-kilometer crater in the superdense ring material - not the upper surface with the ground, but the ring material below. So please quantify this material and show it backs up your claim.

Nice strawman there, trying to distract us with the super-dense material bullshit.

First off, you claimed higher calcs via that example, so it's up to you to prove that it'd require a super powerful explosion to destroy it. Fuck, I'd imagine just about anything that's "super dense" would have a hard time resisting a low KT nuclear explosion, let alone a megaton level explosion. Second, what does it matter if it's super dense? Unless its parts are built to withstand a massive nuclear explosion (which it probably wasn't), but then you'd need to prove that, not claim baseless speculation as evidence.

As to your 'we aren't told of anymore explosions!' claim--no, not specifically, but we don't need to. The description of the explosion wasn't told from the Chief's PoV. The author was describing it. Therefore, we don't need the reactors being the massive explosion. And in addition, we're given an abundent amount of information about how the thing is being torn apart; how does that now suggest more explosions?

Not to mention that the explosion we see in the game doesn't match the description of the one in the novel; the one in the novel flattens. The fireball in the game, if my memory is correct, easily exceeded that.

Only the very base of High Charity is made out of a chunk of the Prophet homeworld; the vast majority of it was built by the Covenant.. And Cortana failed to mention any chain-reaction and was very sure that In Amber Clad would blow up the station.

Why does she have to? It's a giant floating city complete with a drive. It doesn't need to be vaporized, mass scattered, and so forth. It just needs to destroy the city itself. A large nuclear explosion would be devistating to the city at close range.

No evidence? Do you mean the dialogue from the episode? Here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Planets crust would be destroyed within one hour.

No shit. What's your point?

Thirty percent of the planet's crust destroyed in the opening volley.

It's this strange and mysterious thing we call editing. This tends to happen when you only have forty-five minutes to potray hours worth of bombardment. Of course, anyone whose familiar with the show would know that they cut time out a great deal of time; such as Nog's trip to Earth. We're not told anything about time passing, despite Bajor being light years away from Earth and them being in a small shuttle with limited FTL speeds. They in fact, cut out days worth of travel and made no mention of it at all.

So their too stupid to continue firing and completely destroy the plant in minutes?

And just what is your justification for that? What makes you think they couldn't keep firing? You have no evidence of such. They were after all, completely and utterly safe in their minds. Ie, it would be days before any help could arrive and they'd just vaporized 30% of the crust.

Or how do you explain them destroing thirty percent of the planetary crust with a single volley?

That the helmsman accidently said volley instead of vollies? It makes far, far more sense then assuming that their computers were wrong. Either that or we have to assume they were lying to Garak for security reasons.

I don't deny they can use that level of firepower, but if they do it seems clear that they need to make sure to kill or at least cripple the Destroyer with it on the first try or their dead.

No it doesn't. You've taken two conflicting statements and assumed that they work in a way that is completely and utterly unproven. We're not told of any strains to the weapon systems and in fact, soon after, we know that they're fighting against the Dominion ships. If their ships were crippled, why wasn't it mentioned? At all?

Our most logical choices are actually as follows:

1) The false sensor readings actually did mess with the sensors in a way that the damage was greater--and no one caught it. Unlikely, but possible.

2) The officer misspoke and meant surface.

3) Lovok lied to Garak for security reasons or he himself made a mistake.

4) There was a time cut that wasn't mentioned and te first bombardment actually lasted hours (7.2).

Your argument assumes further information that we're not given.

Feel free to point out this rather vital Mass Lighting device used to fire the rounds. Because the fact they don't mention what is a vital component to firing the MAC shells at these speeds kind of shoots you down.

Hardly. Or how about you show me their thrusters and engine descriptions? I'm sure it mentions a ton of things about mass reduction.

Go ahead and quantify the superdense ring material then.

Bite me. Prove that the ring was designed to withstand a nuclear explosion. It doesn't matter how fucking dense it is of it's not designed to withstand those forces.

Bungie hates to retcon things you see (stated in the same source as New>Old).

Except of course, when it suits you apparently.

The first thing you do in the event of contradictions in the canon of a the universe in question is to see if the sources can be reconciled. Guess what? In this case it is a simple matter to reconcile them given Slipspace was fucks up anything we can get out of that without another example in a non-Slipspace affected area. The older books Vs the Halo Encyclopedia? Not so much given there is no mention of this vital Mass Reduction technology they need per you to be able to fire their MAC rounds at the speeds needed to hit Covenant ships.

Bla bla bla, shitty attempts at rationalizing the canon to fit your argument.

Been sometime since I watch the episode so I didn't recall that.

It wasn't an episode. It was a movie.

Point still stands though its a double standard given we don't know what the UNSC uses in Archer missiles.

Yeah, except the outlier itself is completely and uttelry nonsensical. It's right up there with 400 GWs. And while I'm waiting, where's that evidence that Halo Legends doesn't count?

Actually, Prophet, this is what the original Nylund novel stated about the shipboard MACs:

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30 000m/s.

 

A Super MAC projects a 3000 metric tons (I added metric, because everything else is in metric) at "point 4 tenths the speed of light".

 

If .4c is "point 4 the speed of light", and a "tenth" is actually 1/10th, then "point 4 tenths the speed of light" is 0.04c, or 12 000 000m/s.

 

 

 

Let's run some calculations, shall we?

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30km/s:

 

 

 

Ek = mv²/2

 

600 tons are 600 000kg.

 

So (600 000kg x 30 000m/s²)/2 = 270 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 64.5Kton.

Ah-hah!

This makes it all the more simpler. Ie, if we take the TM as giving the unmodified weight and ignoring relative velocity, this solves everything!

A Super MAC platform has a mass of 3,000,000 kg and a speed of .04c (12 000 000m/s):

Ek = mv²/2

 

3000 tons are 3 000 000kg.

 

So (3 000 000kg x 12 000 000m/s²)/2 = 216 000 000 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 51.62Gton.

This is right where expected yields takes them.

 

[/b]HALO Wars also describes clearly to the real effects of Covenant 'glassing', Harvest being a world the UNSC considered to be Glassed was still entirely habitable to human troops, albeit with extreme shifts in climate.

 

 

 

So while a super MAC would also destroy any ST ship it hit, a ship board MAC, with its 65Kton payload, able to destroy Covenant ships in 3 shots, would not even scratch the E-D's shields...

Oh, you see, Prophet and his fellow Haloites try and retconn that as to 'not meaning actual glassing', even though the characters consider it to be in every single way imaginable.

You want another high end feat for ST?

 

 

 

 

 

Voyager getting hit by a 8472 Bioship's beam.

 

 

 

Voyager's shields were only brought down to 82%, an 18% drop in one shot.

 

But what interested me more in that video was that the beam brought Voyager from a still position to spinning out off control.

 

Yes, spinning!

 

Voyager had enough momentum imparted to itself to do almost 2 full turns before finally regaining control.

 

And the shot hit Voyager from the back, and we only see voyager do about two thirds of a cartwheel in about 1 second.

 

Still impressive.

 

We then cut to inside the ship, we see a few things being done, and then when we come back to the outside view, we see the ship still spinning, at least half a turn, then it regains control.

 

 

 

Keeping in mind that Voyager masses 700 000 metric tons, it hit with the equivalent of 71Gtons if the beam is masseless.

 

So we know that Voyager could take roughly 4-5 Super MAC hits before being in trouble.

 

Do I think it's an outlier?

 

Yes, more then probable, but then, it is as canon as any figures found in Halo books and games...

 

 

 

Oh, and according to Wong's asteroid calculator, to Vaporize a 5km crater of iron requires 935Gtons, almost 1 Tton.

 

If we're just "cratering it", then it's 590Mtons, nowhere near Ttons.

 

Where did you get that number from?

Heck, we can also get gigatons from Damar's quote from Rising Apocalypse too. At least two hundred thousand kilometers would be devistated when the BoP would unleash a heavy volly against Gowron's planet-side base. Given they'd be centered around the base itself, we could easily get low gigatons--and higher gigatons if we assume he was talking about the higher end of the scale. Or we could re-affirm TDiC via Booby Trap, where Data notes that it was impressive that primitive species were able to destroy a planet with the weapons of the time--suggesting that the UFP's technology in that regard was superior.

The Enteprise J part UFP fleet that sucessful stop Sphere Builders form over running Star Terk main univerce. The fact that the Sphere build most likley over ran Star Terk main univerce UFP never formed. That reason Sphere building aim to get rid of human race in the first place.

And...?

This means Caretaker races that we know Star Terk univerce not be able to stop them.

No it doesn't.

We all can agree Caretaker destory the Death star easily.

I never remember agreeing to that. Hell, the fact that the fucking Kazon could pose a threat to them pretty much takes a shit all over that.

So I can see any good reason why the Enteprise J could use for target pratice.

Your words. My ears. Bleed.

Of course but it didn't stop you from spewing crap in your post.

Spewing crap? Hardly. It was based on theoretical data in the lack of true canon. It's the only way to try and quantify the debate, despite the obvious handicap of the OP.

This whole topic is a big steaming pile of shit.

Jason was the Oper, of course it is.

You could've posted about pixies and their lust for fucking blue bricks and we'd get the same result. Pure Prime Grade "A" Bullshit.

Hardly. I tried to remain consistant with the assumption of a linar scale. Otherwise I'd be forced to look at the Xindi superweapon and conclude that the Spheres must of at least tried the same thing against the Federation--and failed.

Why did you post all that junk when you could've just said "We don't know much about E-J except it could time travel. We don't know how it would fare against a Death Star."?

As I've said in my first post and from here on in, it's the only way to try and quantify the capabilities. It could be less...but then again it could be more. I already admitted it was theoretical. And yet, you still seem to flip out like someone kicked sand in your face.

Nahh, you rather just post gibberish and then get your panties in a twist when someone calls you on it.

Panties in a twist? Coming from the guy who came in screaming and hurling shit because you didn't like my conclusion based on non-canon information--which I already admitted was theoretical? Let's be honest here. You didn't like what I said and you got your thong in a twist and came screaming at me like you've got a pair, blowing the entire thing waaaaaay out of porportion. My responses have been measured purely as opposed to your response.

I bet you wipe your mouth with toilet paper after spewing shit like that.

Yeah gee, it's not like I specifically said that the calculations were based on unsteady evidence and the claims of the designer...I mean shit, it's not like I seriously suggested this as being canon.

I can linear scale bullshit like you do and consider SW turbolasers as inferior.

Yeah, how dare I say that using non-canon evidence and a non-canon and suspicious scaling method, that we might possibly get something remotely accurate from a stupid versus debate thread.

Let's see... The nuke used against Hiroshima was 1KT. Within a decade a 1MT was developed. Using bullshit figures like a 1000x increase per decade that means by the mid 60's we developed a 1GT nuke, the 70's a 1TT nuke, 1PetaTon nuke during the 80's, a 1 ExaTon nuke during the 90's and in the past decade a 1 ZettaTon nuke. I think we've past the ability to smash our planet into itty bitty pieces. If an ISD were to reach within Earth's orbit then we can nuke'em to hell, but mind you we'd be fucked up to.

Wow, what a clever little analogy.

I mean, I was totally astonished to learn that it's possible to get skewed results from a purely theoretical and rough scale.

So with unknown capabilities for the E-J and well known capabilities of the DS, then we'd have to side with the DS until such time that the E-J's capabilities are shown.

Wow, I mean shit. That sounds very familiar...like...

Me:

 

Taking out time travel...we know nothing, absolutely nothing about the Enterprise J

like I've heard it before. Almost like...like I've already said that.

Nah, it must be nothing.

You mean the same game where we see both SMAC stations and ships open up the moment the Covenant fleet enters the kill zone - and are still BvR?

BvR? The fuck does that mean?

Also Halo 3 overrules it by showing of MT range explosions on the Keyship.

Yeah, those guns sure did fight at those supersonic ranges all right...

The stories are canon, but the visuals per Frank O'Conner can not be taken as accurate.

Yeah, the part of the story where a small fucking gun blows a hole through the supposed teraton shielded ship. That one. The one where a Elite commander was apparently so incapable of vaporizing a handful of boost frames at close range that the commander in charge was willing to blow up his own ships as a small price to pay for killing them.

It'd be like a naval captain blowing up his own ships becuase a few guys on heavily armed skee jets were attacking their fleet.

Already conceded on weapons range. Also please prove they fight at high C speeds given we never see that anywhere I can recall, and both BoBW and FC (Movie) so them not fighting at high C speeds.

Visuals for Trek are never accurate. They can't even get the ship sizes right half the time. We even see that when it comes to dialogue, the ranges are always higher than the visuals. Conclusion: the visuals are flawed.

I'm not, I simply corrected him on standard Covenant glassing operations, and pointing out that TDiC can be explain by the standard treknobabble and an overcharged super shot that leaves the ship defenseless for a time.

You mean handwaved away by claiming it's technobabble (even though on a show where they just love to toss it out--they don't in this case...) and your overcharged shot is also bullshit, given that we're in no case told that it's either an overcharged shot or even that if were, that it would leave the ship defenseless.

I can agree there are plenty of outliers, but the fact remains there are still far to many high ends in Halo that even have support in the games. IF the new novels show and Halo Reach conclusively prove it wrong I will concede.

Yeah, I'll take that at face value.

And you will of course give us this quote in which Bungie explicitly says Covenant weapons are not pure DET?

I believe it was something like 'weapons are far more ancient and archaic...'. It didn't specifically say non-DET. However, it does suggest and fix a great deal of problems we see with BDZs.

Becuase the only quote I know of on the matter doesn't mean much currently simply because it doesn't give enough infomration. And the Booster Frames are lower canon than both books and games and are contradicted by higher canon throughout (take for exmaple Halo rings appearing in orbit of Covenant home worlds... yeah, nice of Halo Legends to go and attempt to f**k over the higher canon games).

Proof that Halo Legends are lower canon?

And the fact their ships are so light proves nothing unless you happen to have a quote that proves this use it to fire the MAC.

It says everything. Otherwise, they'd have to drop to a dead stop to fire the MACs in order to allow the mass of the ammo to be returned to its real mass.

Because until then Occam’s Razor frowns upon you.

Yeah, Occam's Razor doesn't apply so well when canon itself is convoluted and stupid so that we have to reason away why ships capable of teratons of firepower and deflection that they can be taken down by MT level mines. Or that people that toss out gigatons to teratons would even carry them.

But lets say they do use to fire the MAC round, guess what? Unless you prove that its on the round itself the moment it leaves the MR field generated by the ship it is a 600 ton slug moving at 40% the speed of light for a grand total of 1.17 Teratons. And on Halo 2 I will once more point out that the first shots we see are fired at BvR when Cortana goes loud. Also the same game in which Cortana considers detonating a Frigates to be enough to wipe out High Charity.

 

And if you want to continue being a little pecker, I can play that game too. UFP ships clearly have ubertons of firepower via TDiC, Obsession, Booby Trap, and so forth. See? I can be a dick too.

The Fleet Master out numbered them, he could afford the to lose a few ships. And is it silly? Yes. But it doesn't change anything given that within its own canon tier the Halo Encyclopedia overrules older canon.

It's not silly.

It's fucking retarded. It'd be like a modern US fleet, despite being torn apart to hell to the point that small side arms could sink them deciding to attack a small group of heavily armed enemy ships because 'he could take the losses'.

So I guess all those accelerations by UNSC ships that still require Gigaton range per second outputs (Nattuo's calcs, see Halo firepower thread on this site for the link) are just mass hallucinations,

Yeah, because gigaton level energy generation a second is totaly possible with fusion engines...oh shit, no it's not. Fucking hell man, will you get some fucking dignity?

and the Pillar of Autumn didn't go off in a multi-Teraton explosion,

It didn't asshole. The novel makes it perfectly clear that the explosion from the reactors put a hole in the ground, causing it to weaken and break and that's the massive explosion we see--you know, the one that utterly shatters the ring?

and Cortana was clearly already rampant when she said In Amber Clad's reactors going off would be enough to destroy High Charity.

Which means...what? High Charity is a massive floating ship made from a large asteroid. Blowing up a nuclear reactor nearby would probably cause a chain reaction--ie, destroying the asteroid.

And I'm more than willing to allow it given it would clearly cripple the firing ship for a time (1 hour to remove crust, opening volley destroyed 30% crust. This kind of knocks out any chance of standard ship based firepower).

Allow? Allow?

Why thank you you little pecker, how nice of you to allow me to have firepower based on some bullshit qualifications that you put in place with no evidence.

There was no evidence that the fleet had crippled their own weapon system. Stop making up some bullshit excuse as to why they can't use the firepower. Both sides have absurdly high showing. They're called outliers. If you want to use yours, then I'll use mine. And they'll rape your ships in a matter of seconds.

To move their ships are 1000+ Gs. You will of course prove with a canon source that they use it on MAC rounds.

The fact that their ships are mass reduced and are carrying them is pretty damning enough. And of course, the fact that the ship's thrusters would still require it to match said energy when it fires via recoil.

Pillar of Autumn, the only stated source for the massive explosion at the end of Halo CE, easily was in the high TT range. Given the reactor could output and withstand this forces for a time... what reason do they have for not cranking up the juice and firing what would basically be ship based SMAC's? Or just detonate ships inside Covenant fleets to completely wipe them out?

Yeah, the explosion that only made a fairly small crater in relative to its massive ground based explosion? Don't make me laugh. The explosion we saw in the game was clearly from the ring itself exploding, not the ship.

Translation: Wah! I don’t want to reconcile the newer canon with the older games if possible.

Trnaslation: Wah! My shitty argument dies with higher canon!

We can easily reconcile the Halo Wars with the older GAMES by this fact alone. Unless you would care to explain why out of the blue Bungie decided everything showings massive accelerations and ships crossing massive distances in the other games is suddenly wrong. It perfectly explains the inconsistent acceleration in Halo Wars and we do not have to throw out three games worth of evidence for massive acceleration.

Newer games override the old. Oh, but you don't seem to want to do that when it takes a shit on your arugment do you?

Either that or they have absurdly low density materials that are so strong that it is a fit you can walk around on them without falling through the floor. Take your pick.

Prove that. We have more evidence pointing to mass reduction than your made up armor argument.

Insurrection: Two Son'A ships, who together can outfight the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torps without flinching, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of 'Metrion Gas.' Chemical reactions of that nature are, compared to nuclear fission/fusion and M/AM reactions, absolutely pathetic. But this kind of silly stuff is what you can expect to see in sci-fi.

Given said gas also created a habitable class M planet with a bright blue sky and fountain of youth rings, we can't tell what the fuck that stuff does.

Night Terrors: the Enterprise D's weapons cache is once again proven to be inferior to the chemical explosion of the volatile anicium and yurium components of a man's cargo. So, kind of a double standard to complain about the UNSC using chemical weapons.

...That tells me nothing. How much of this stuff was in the man's cargo? And again, small outlier when we see that they use power generation far, far beyond that.

Yep, those ships had been damaged and were stated to be in the middle of making repairs when drawn into the trap.

Which is again, retarded. If UNSC ships were regularly capable of tossing out gigaton level firepower, not only would 30 megaton mines be absurdly retarded to have onboard--but it also makes me wonder why they'd bother to use them to destroy ships that are so crippled that they themselves would be able to assrape them. Also, how very lucky that they hit the one ship still capable of defelcting teraton firepower...right? Even more fortunate that the fleet commander for the Covenant was so amazingly stupid that he sent his crippled fleet into battle.

To give a comparison, it would be like a modern US Admiral sending his ships into battle when they could be sunk by muskets due to previous battle damage. Because that's exactly the same sort of gap we're looking at here. Funny how all your arguments rely on the characters being ungodly stupid.

Seems like it can vary from type of weapon their using and what the exact objectives of the glassing operation in question are (Forerunner relic and such being on the planet).

In other words, you'll say that they can have non-DET effects...except during glassing operations and combat. Because then obviously they use teratons of firepower even though its hundreds of times more inefficient than the technobabble way.

Not really, only took 36 ships in TFoR, and we know the Covenant have multiple fleets numbering in the mid to high hundreds with at least one over a thousand.

...And? Again, if you want to go with wank yields, I can point to TDiC where almost half that amount was stated to do a great deal more in a great deal less time.

Most showings have high accelerations with only 3-4 outliers (and yes, there does appear to be some form of mass lighting involved given that four Covenant ships detected in Slipspace, mistaken for a single object, at 20,000 tons was stated to be larger than any known Covenant vessel), and their high maneuverability would give them a good chance to try and dodge Plasma Torpedoes at range.

So...that reinforces the idea that the UNSC uses mass reduction.

TFoR states that a MAC shot can cripple or destroy all but the most largest UNSC warships. Given that latest canon information puts MACs closer to Covenant glassing levels I'm doubting their theartened by lesser weapons. Also where do we see UNSC threaten by Megaton range nukes?

Given that they all use mass reduction, I really can't imagine that they'd be able to create teraton explosions. That's not even taking into account relative velocity.

The Covenant have been using Antimatter since the first game (Cortana mentions they musted have used an Antimatter charge to take out the MAC), this retcon at least allows Covenant glassing operations to make some sense. How Halo firepower really goes all depends on the new updated and revised versions of the first three books.

Yeah...chances are they're not going to change those parts.

Easily reconciled by the Slipspace drive they dropped in it, those things have a history of making the local laws of physics cry.

Handwaving at its finest.

How about an actual argument now?

Sameway the Spartans with jetbacks chased after the ship going at 100 million KPH: Accelerated after it. Can't confirm it but Evolutions from what I've heard has retcon Archers to having nuclear warheads.

So...mass reduction?

Alos, I believe there are two Star Trek episodes in which chemical explosives proved to more powerful than the Photon Torpedoes of the Enterprise. So Halo having overpowered chemical weapons isn't anything new.

Two really? Can we see them? And even if they were, they're massive outliers.

1. Those ships had just been in 2-3 battles no more than half an hour before and were in the middle of making repairs. Start of TFoR mentions that a Covenant ships shields would need to be

Let's try that again, shall we? We know that some of the ships had taken damage--we don't know the extent of the damage the fleet had taken and it's incredibly unlikely that the ships would be so crippled that they'd be incapable of blocking a fraction of the energy you claim they can. It also makes me question the wisdom of the fleet commander given that when his ships were incapable of blocking a mere fraction of said full capacity--he decided to attack a force that would easily be able to toss that out at them.

Also, as per my viewing of Halo 2, those MACs weren't at all that fast or impressive.

2. Halo Canon policy New>Old.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Halo Legends come out after the TMs? As in, where we saw Booster Frames being capable of blasting their way through the command ship in the middle of the Covenant fleet? And we saw regular missiles being able to damage ships? Even assuming MAC based technology, there's no way these ships should have lost shielding to something as small as say, a fucking Booster Frame if it can take capital ship level nuking.

3. The Ent-D has to be able to get in range of the Covenant ship. Given the Covenant ship has a standard higher weapons range and sub-light combat speed I am really doubting the Ent-D can get in range and stay close enough.

Based on what? We saw that in The Wounded, the Phoenix was able to hit a target within at least 200,000 km. We know from Voyager that ships can travel at .8c and so logically, the torpedoes would have to travel even faster to hit those ships. In other words, we're talking anything from 8.c up to 9.9c--possibly at c itself. Given the speeds that MACs supposedly move at, this would make them incredibly useless.

It took them one hour to vaporize the oceans and melt the crust to an unknown depth. The first volley in The Die is Cast had them taking out 30% of the crust. I'm doubting that is normal and is far more likely a megacharged up attack that works mainly off the NDF effect (unlike Covenant glassing which we have as of TCP seen the charge time for Covenant plasma torpedoes) which would not have an effect on Covenant shields.

Ah, what wonderful way to ignore ST higher end and shove in your asinine high ends. Face it, both universes have examples of ships possibly being in the high end range of weapons. But we both know that both of them are more or less outliers. The fact is, plasma torpedoes are stated not to work in a way we're used to by Bungie employees themselves and we know that their ships can't exceede megaton range. Those mines and the Booster Frames make this painfully obvious.

As for your MACs...we know your ships are light enough to float on water. I highly doubt they'd be able to fire shells that massively powerful or even carry them given their massive weight densities compared to the rest of the ship. As I've suggested before, we're looking at mass reduced weapons. It's the only logical explination and the fact that their ships are so light seems to reinforce this idea. And if not...well, it's an outlier and we sure as hell don't see these MACs firing that fast in the game. Ever.