Mith

That's silly. They're Imperial officers. They shouldn't wet their pants at the prospect of a few asteroids.

Actually, even without going into yield debates, SW relies a great deal more on its ray shielding than particle. Particle shielding is probably designed to take proton torpedoes and minor impacts. An extended bombardment on all parts of the ISD's hull would probably be more than what the ship's shields were designed for. Similariy, as the armor is probably designed to be heat resistant, as even a nuke is mostly going to give off heat, then it's likely that the Imperial's armor might not be as thick as was originally thought or at least not as durable against physical impacts.

*shrug* It is possible for higher yields, but I was refering to thus far, the higher canon (for a Venator) is about a few kt at their lowest and 1.5 megatons at their higest. Is it possible to have more power? Certainly, but this must be proven. If you have larger yields (no, not Saxton), then please post them, I'd be happy to see them. I've even recently been going over the NX and TOS stuff and I'm thinking about going back on the idea of the NX having 50 mt warheads, given what the evidence seems to suggest.

It's based off the Revenge of the Sith quote--and by the way, he is very much correct. In fact, the yield can be much lower than that. It would technically work at lowest possible yield with a town like Accident, but even larger towns wouldn't require more than 100 KTs to fuck up on incredible levels.

Granted. I've been told that the ship was indicated to have been destroyed by the novel. Possible retcon might be that the ship was basically wrecked, but they used the heavily damaged remains to rebuild the ship rather than spend the whole 3.88 billion. It could also be that the ship was quickly replaced and the Empire sought to bury the loss of the ship as a rumor to save face. True, he was taking a risk either way given the reluctance of the Imperial officers to follow the Falcon into the field.

No, I contest that the inbred finds a way to also kill off most, if not all the humans as well

In other words, the Pakleds are stupid enough to beam down and get slaughtered. Seeing his boys need help, the captain runs to help, but trips falls on the 'make it glow' button. After watching several large massive firestorms engulf the Gungan army, he beams down to see if any of his boys survived. Meanwhile, the inbred of the group is left alone to try and make it to third base with the antimatter pods while the ship's slowly decaying orbit goes critical...

I'm not sure. But if that was the case, it shouldn't be much operational at that point. I'd almost say that surely Vader wouldn't be stupid enough to send it in otherwise...but he has been shown to be a wee bit irrational occasionally. Like when he betrayed Windu. And slaughtered helpless children. And choked his wife. Actually, nevermind. I think it's entirely possible he did something stupid like that. But kidding aside, I don't think it was ever mentioned. Even so, it does say a great deal about their structural capabilities.

I considered it to be on par with Darkstar's upper yield of 1.5 megatons for HTLs. It's possible that they could be higher, but if they were so much more powerful, one wonders why the Torpedo Spheres carry turbolasers. I suppose it would be prudent to compare the damage we've seen proton torpedoes do to ships in comparison to how the turbolasers do. Given this, we could presumably come up with a lower limit and a possible upgraded scale.

Well...I had a slightly different idea... *uses tractor beam to move a large asteroid shaped boot over SDN* Want to see how the dinosaurs died?

Well, let's think about this here. We know that Torpedo Spheres are designed to take down shielding of large planetary shields. Now, we know that the Torpedo Spheres carrried 500 proton torpedoes. Even assuming a yield of 1.5 megatons and assuming that 500 torpedoes is enough to smash through the weakened portion of a shield for a planetary shield, the total output would be around 750 torpedoes, although it could possibly be 937.5 megatons for the sake of the energy fluctuations. A high yield photon torpedo could presumably blast its way through and damage the surface, although I would suspect that the method of pure one on one fight is stacked againt the Defiant. Really though, I'd say just sweep in close so that they're under the DS shields, beam a torpedo behind the hull and watch it blow out a big hole, then proceede to blasting away at the vulnerable insides. Given that the DS doesn't even have true particle shielding, it would probably be a rather simple feat.

If he cries can I kick him?

Why? Because of the limitation of VFX? I also highly doubt this, given the fact that much time hadn't passed. Unless we assume that more time had passed and what we saw was only a portion of the bombadment, in which case it becomes more in line with what we saw as to the computer's estimation. Based onw hat evidence? The Founders were only faking life sign readings. If anything, the image would have remained the same. I prefer using a few meter long ship with a warhead the size of a small toy ball that's capable of consuming an entire planet within minutes. And of course, said ship carrying enough of said warhead to take out not just one, but multiple planets. But I suppose when you work with such inferior technology as seen in Star Wars, you pretty much have to build a massve moon sized station to get the sort of bang to take out a planet.

As noted by another poster and before we go on, these were not the usual small BoP. The Klingons had a larger version that we saw in TNG from time to time. Given the massive size of those cannons, they probably had a rather big punch. Basically, the entire battle really doesn't tell us much about the Enterprise D's fighting capabilities. The problem is, that while it can be sure that the Klingons got some sort of advantage out of using the Enterprise C to limit the Enterprise D's movements, in a slug match, the Enterprise D went down. But then again, it was facing ships we cannot quantify, but are on the size scale similar to itself and desptie three to one odds, took out on of them and gave the others bloody noses. That's still impressive. But they would not have won. Yeah...no. Saxton's books are little more than bunk, and more reasonable calculations done on the quote from Revenge of the Sith suggests that the Venators of the time had low KT level weapons--on par with the NX-01 class. Even in twenty years, we can likely disregard the idea of their weapons technologies jumping that high. Probably double digit kilotons at best. What series do you watch? The Enterprise D is the least manuverable of the ships and its still outclasses the Imperial class. That's not to mention the Sovereign class, which would basically fly circles around an ISD--not that it need to considering the Nova class would probably spank a small fleet of them without problem. Which is why a stray asteroid tore off the bridge tower of an ISD right? Oh dear.

Good God. The Valiant used a probe that was specifically designed to be hard to track. This was specifically mentioned in the episode. That didn't work because it confuses sensors. It worked because the computers that were running the platforms identified their enemies via their warp signature, a common tactic even aboard starships, often used for long range identification. It has jack shit to do with jamming and is as lame as when Wong produced the same bullshit in his fanfic where it's taken to absurdly stupid extensions. Furthermore, even if what you said were an example of them using such a method, such a method is just not used in combat. Any manned ships in the area would have instantly recognized what the Defiant had done and just fired at the Defiant and the other ships, instead of the small moon. And finally, it still doesn't make it hard for the weapon platforms to hit the target, which by your logic, it should. If anything, it pretty much acts like posting a large 'shoot me' sign on your back. Please, start thinking this through.

Oh dear, I forgot to give you some quantification on planetary defenses. Well, as we've seen in TOS and TNG, even penal colonies and science outposts have planetary shields. In fact, Kirk was somewhat surprised when Memory Alpha didn't have a planetary shield, to which he was notified that it was open to all and wasn't all that important strategically. We also know that starbases can provide significant defenses. Even DS9, often refered to as a small station by the UFP (which considering the size of their more modern spacedock-type stations, is rather understandable). Spacedocks, assuming any form of armament and shielding, would provide an enormous obstacle against any armada attacking a system. An older model exists over Earth herself. We've also seen that the Mars Defense Parimeter composed of at least three attack ships (instantly destroyed by the Borg though) and we know that planets can have orbital weapons platforms or ground base defenses. That's not including any nearby starships that might quickly respond to the crisis as well.

Realistically? The Pakleds are mostly just slow. They can have clever ideas. They also have photon torpedoes, so at least low megaton weapons. The Gungans have...they have shield generators mounted on dinosaurs. And large cannon balls that need to be slung by crude catapaults that have a few dozen meters in range. It might take the Pakleds several hours to figure out they can just nuke them from orbit, but when they do you can pretty much kiss the Gungans good bye. Then again, the Pakleds are also probably stupid enough to beam down to the large massive firestorms to loot the bodies, so in all likelyhood, the Pakleds kill the Gungans and then themselves. And while they're not all Jar-Jar, they did knowingly make the village idiot a general. That's stupidity almost beyond words.

Okay, this web browser has eaten my post twice. Let's see if third time's the charm: Lets. Originally Posted by Wizard of the Coast, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds Rebel ships were dispatched to protect the sector. So in other words, they weren't available. To give you an idea of just what that means, the Mon Calamari defense fleet has enough to possibly defeat an attack squadron--ie, 18 ships consisting of scouts, pursuit ships, frigates, and cruisers in addition to one Imperal Star Destroyer. Thus, logically in order to utterly demolish the Mons, they'd only need two or maybe three attack squadrons. And yet, the Empire didn't have enough ships to take them out. Why is that Prophet? And this has jack shit to do with what? And? This still doesn't prove anything. The Battle of Endor was a) guarding the largest Imperial asset and a trap that would have crippled if not right ended the Rebel Alliance. It sure as hell would have gutted the Rebel fleet and leave them without a leader. It becomes a problem when all your arguments are just reflections of other people's work. And you'll find out why it's a problem soon enough. And? That doesn't make his statement any less false and biased. For one thing, he used the largest examples he could find as far as towns go. He chose one of the largest small towns he could find and then immediately decided that total area = literal representation of a town. And here, you'll see a similar argument to Darkstar's or Oraghan's. And that argument is that you're using a literal interpretation when it isn't warrented and it drastically affects weapons yields. I'm not sure how familiar you are with American literature, but take it from one who is (or don't, I don't care which, you'll see why soon). American literature makes use of 'vaporization' to describe large thermal effects, not the literal designation for such. These are more in the term of flavor words, or as my work would label it, 'sizzel words'. Take for example, a resturant advertising sizziling wings. Does that mean that the wings are literally sizziling? No. Or how about, ice cold lemonade? A literal interpretation would lead us to believe that the lemonade is literally so cold that it's formed into ice, when in fact it just means really, really cold. The same applies here. There is no reason why we should believe that a town is going to be literally vaporized. As it is, if it's anything like Japan's bombing, it's going to create a massive firestorm from cars and other highly combustable things being exposed to a massive (and I do mean massive) fireball. And this in fact, makes your argument rather say...weak. More than likely we should look at the area of the firestorm, which would fulfill a reasonable extent of the author's comments. In fact, it makes me wonder if you truly know the horror of a firestorm. Allow me to quote a rather good source: That is what a nuclear firestorm will do to a nuked area. But just to show you some more: http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/nuclearexplosionsimulator/ First, locate Accident, Maryland. Then put in a 2 kiloton nuclear bomb and make sure that it's on hybrid. The result, as you will note, will show that the minimal size of the firestorm is going to at least cover a .64 km radius with a probable of .88 km, more than enough firepower to ensure that anything in that town is not going to live. Now let's do your pal's town, Exeter, Rhode Island, shall we? Well, as we can easily see, it's much larger. Let's do the 2 kt nuke, which we see, while is rather effective, doesn't exactly put the entire town in the firestorm, although as you can guess, it's not going to be pleasent for anyone in the town. Let's go to 15 kt. As you can see, the bulk of the town, save for the outskirts, is pretty much going to be caught in a massive firestorm. Let's check the 100 kt option shall we--and we see that the firestorm is much more than capable of turning the entire town into a burning hell hole. Or 1 megaton, which as we can see, creates even further damage. So as you can see, your friend's argument is rather a massive failure to understand American literature and what a nuclear weapon will actually do. Second, if I wanted to, I could obtain much larger yields for Damar's quotes. Notice how instead of choosing the smallest possible results as I did, your friend chose one of the largest towns he could find that fit the category. Just going up to say, up to 798.8 kilometers, the result is a 30,000 megaton nuclear warhead. Wow, way to take the entire scene out of context. Or did you and Aratech forget that the entire lie fed to them was that they were fighting an enemy at a stalemate--ie, they both would have required roughly the same technology. And yet, when they meet the homebase--the heart and mind of their enemy's operations, it's capable of going down with one torpedo. Compare this to DS9, a former Cardassian station enhanced with Federation technology; required an entire armada of Klingon ships to bring down its shields. Countless disruptor blasts and numerous photon torpedoes. Or hell, even a Federation starship, that requires at least half a dozen in most cases. And yet, this station would easily be destroyed by one photon torpedo. Their reactions was to the sheer stupidity of the incident, not whether or not they could take it out with a phaser. It should at the very leats, take a dozen or so torpedoes, not just one. It had exactly jack shit to do with their photon torpedoes. 1) The cost of those ISDs were immense. They literally spent several system worth of credits on entire ships. That doesn't show a large budget--it shows a budget that's been mostly spent on single, massive ships. And infact, when the ISD was first proposed, the argument over it nearly split the newly formed Galactic Empire, it was that costly. And this is in addition to the cost of the SSD and the Death Star, not to mention patrol ships, cruisers, scouts, and frigates. Is it really a wonder why their fighters are flying pieces of shit with armor equal to most forms of tinfoil hats? 2) Are you just naive? There is no nation in existence that would accept a foreign, unknown power to send spies through its land. Not in the time of Abraham, not in our time, and certainly not with races that live near, or are xenophic races. So yes, they will attack those probes and then they're going to have a bone to pick with the dumbasses that sent them into their territory. Based on what? Where is your evidence for this? Fine, go ahead and post them. You'll soon learn why. Dude, their entire war effort came to a halt in territory they were familiar with for hundreds of years. Now you think they can just magically find more in a few months in a galaxy they've never been to? Well Prophet, unless TLs have intestellar ranges (and they don't), they're not going to do jack shit without an established hyperlane. Those super cheap droids cost 24,500 credits each. So your plan is to send in several ships into an area that you just established and fire off a few shots--despite the fact that they'll probably set off every alarm on the planet and cause them to raise shields. And this is assuming there's not a hostile ship in the area, in which case they're going to kick said ISD's sorry ass all the way back to Coruscant. Under Torpedo Sphere. Given that their shielding technology is based off the same thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Death Star--or even a ISD is going to have the same problems. Based on what? The core? That's a pretty shitty argument. Yeah and what was the return on that? Oh right, several hyperlanes. Even if you want to argue a 400% increase, at most we're looking at what, about thirty lanes in weeks or months? And this is again, already a part of space that the Republic is somewhat familiar with. And again, they'd probably be losing probes that have to drop out of hyperspace to scan a planet while being on the surface. So anyways, it's in your court now.

Cute, but as you demonstrate below, you already know the answer. Still, I shall provide it: Um...what? Oh I see. No, you fail to understand, but this isn't surprising.You probably misremember. Allow me to clear it up for you: It is, as far to my knowledge, the only post he made in that thread. His idea wasn't about using only one torpedo, so much that it is that the warbird is targeting one immobile base. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that they'd be firing torpedoes all over the place. Even a few kilometers wouldn't really affect the results. That's the point.

Why is it irrelevant? What is your reasoning for declaring it as such? It was an analysis given by Damar on what they should do to get rid of the imposter. His suggestion was to bombard the base which would take care of the High Council and everyone within a few hundred kilometers. There's absolutely no reason to believe he's lying or engaged in hyperbole. It would likely be a class X torpedo, but that's not a big deal, given that we know Voyager had at least three.

Really? Sounds like they couldn't spare the forces to me. Want to try again? Lol. Still using other people's arguments to fight your battles Prophet? Your argument is a load of bullshit. Want to know what a small town looks like? Try Accident Maryland, which has a total size of .5 sq miles or 1.3 kilometers. And that's not even the smallest town in America. I can and have found smaller, though Accident is fairly small itself. However, in order to vaporize a town that has a basic radius of .5 miles, all you need is a 1.5 megaton nuclear bomb to effectively (not 100% literally you twerp) vaporize that town, with an air-burst fireball of 820 meters (slightly over .5 miles). So really, my assertion of 5-15 megatons was generous. I could find an even smaller town and still come up with a lower yield. So in reality, its a blast of 1-5 megatons. As for claiming they don't work like nuclear weapons, well they may not. But then again, you'd need to quantify how they work then. Hey dipshit, how about you don't take one of the largest example of a small town in America? Most small towns are located in the 15-30 sq mile range, as opposed to 57 sq miles, which are the largest. Oh right, that would mean being honest. You mean the shield that was so pathetically armed that the entire crew save for the alien imposter thought as so laughable that they utterly refused to fire upon it, despite being brainwashed and led to believe that this was their mortal enemy? Oops. And they're going to waste the thousands, maybe millions of credits in this project because...why? And again, even if they get a few, they'll still be facing Federation defenses. Not to mention that they'd be basically aiming in the dark. They'd first need a basic outline of UFP space to make sure they don't cause the entire quadrant to turn on them and since they don't and they probably don't care anyway, we can conclude that they'll probably piss off the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Klingons, the Tholians, the Sheliak (who by the way, tossed the Enterprise D away like a kitten playing with a mouse), and a host of other races. And even if they did manage to locate a rough map of the UFP, they then have to hit critical points, not just outlying systems. Oh I see, letting Leo do your debating for you, eh? Alright, start coughing up the numbers. Oh, so cute. A bit of problem that they wouldn't be able to hit those cities due to the inaccuracy of mapping out hyperlanes and basically hitting random planets. Planetary shields are known to have power fluctuations of up to 20% in their shield grids. Its how torpedo spheres take them down; they locate the areas, bombard the fuck out of them, and then fire turbolasers at the surface generators. Given that their shield technology is based off the same basics, then logically all shielded craft will have power fluctations in their shield grid. How is this any different than what I've said? Also note that this will take even longer, since the Republic is already familiar with their galaxy, where as they are not with the ST galaxy. This suggests an even longer times to build a hyperlane. Lol. Kinda funny how your little brother made similar claims. Nor do we know what sort of destruction the Enterprise was looking at, so your claim is nothing more than a lower limit, not a higher one. Wasn't really saying I didn't. It's fairly obvious by your novice tactics and your screen name who you are. Unless you also claim to be Invader as well.

The problem is that with your presumption, is that you assume that the Ion Cannons have enough firepower to overwhelm a Federation starship. In order for you to come up with a good argument, we need to know how powerful ion storms are and how powerful ISD ion cannons are. You can't simply point to two things whose levels of power we don't know and say that it must mean Trek ships are vernable to it. So, if you can quantify the Ion Cannons--or at least the ships they can take out with their weapons and then quantify the power that is sent into the Starships of these ion storms, then you can compare them. If you cannot, then your argument is rather baseless.

Ad hominem. Again. By the way, do I know you or something? You seem to have this firmly lodged up your ass.

Highly unlikely. You'd note that in the Clone Wars movie that the Republic was desperate to get the Hutt lanes when the CIS mined all the current ones. The reason for that, to which if you look in the EU, is that the SW ships cannot make blind hyperspace jumps safely (at least not capital ships, fighters seem to be able to). So much so that without the Hutt lanes, the Republic war effort was basically brought to a grinding halt. So no, that's not possible. Second, it's highly unlikely that three Imperials are capable of taking out the Empire. I suppose you're probably trying to go for the Saxton claims, but as we've seen in multiple EU sources, their GT firepower is as often seen as Spock is. Looking again, to Apocalypse Rising, A Klingon BoP is stated to be able to take care of anyone within a 'few hundred kms or Gorwon's base camp. This suggests at least a yield of 1,025 megatons. It is possible of course, that it could be a Class X torpedo, which has shown to have a higher yield, but even then it's not likely to be all that much higher than all their other torpedoes, given that it could also be deployed against starships. But if you're willing to put up an actual argument, rather than making ad hominems, I'd be happy to debate it.

Yo.