Mith

No, the Battle Lance was in the novel Death Star. It tried to use a hypermatter prototype and was promptly vaporized upon bringing it online. So yeah. I don't think that really works.

Highly unlikely given that the Battle Lance exploded when it tried to adapt a hypermatter reactor to a ship of its size in Death Star. I would also ask what ICS you're getting this from. EDIT: Oh wait, Complete Cross Sections. In that case, please post the material.

Actually, I was mistaken. It's explictely stated by the Star Wars Databank from the Force Unleashed that the ISD runs on Solar Ionization reactors. You also find them in TIE fighters...

No, the Imperial IIs were the ones with hypermatter reactors. The ICS is incorrect that the Imperials or the Venators used hypermatter; they used fusion.

Damn...did he just try to pleasure himself with a remote in his anus? Or was that to get back at his mommy? Brat: Is this what you want?! Mother: No honey, but you have to-- Brat: See?! You want me to shove a remote up my anus?! You want that? Mother:... Brat: See?! See? I'm punishing myself! You like that don't you?! Is that what you want?! Mother: Honey, you know that your fath--uh, that I'll love you, even if you're faggot.

Oh yes, the hundred meter wide fireball really cured it for ya. Dude? They only have the KE level impact if they're traveling that much faster than the target. Ie, if the enemy ship is moving at 80,000 km a second and the missiles are moving at 100,000 km a second, then the kinetic impact is not going to be worth 100,000 km. It'd be worth the extra 20,000 km a second. That's why when someone runs into you, God doesn't include the speed of the planet that's moving really, really fast. So yeah, if the target was hit while being a sitting duck, then it would deal a great amount of damage. But the fact of the matter is that it probably wasn't. Evidence? No it isn't. We see High Explosives, we see 100 meter wide fireballs, we see megaton level nukes that amount to about 400 mts, we see a glassed planet capable of supporting life, and so much more. Fuck, you can't even get KE impacts correct and even I, someone who is not really all that great in physics, that you can't just take that at face value. What 1,000 km fireball asshole? I saw your quote; where as the KM explosion? And if it was, why is there only a five km hole you fucker? Again, hyperbole when you want it, but not when everyone else, right? Bullshit. Sorry dude, cherry picking isn't going to help here. They don't have to fire GT level yields at point blank range buddy. The problem is that sub-kt weapons dealt damage to the both of them. And it's also worth pointing out that it doesn't matter what the fuck brought about the Phoenix; its a viable warship. It may be cannon fodder, but there's absolutely no indication that it was terribly outmatched in that exchanged, at least not as far as other UNSC ships. Twas mentioned on Halopedia. You haven't shot down anything. That's just it. Halo Wars is higher canon than your sources are. You can't simply dismiss it like I can dismiss the novels for being inaccurate in terms of glassing. Because they are. If you weren't such a little fanboy you'd get that. Nope. Still no. Hey, go get your brother. That way you can both wank off at the same time. Or get each other off, because really your both as bad as the other. Same shitty writing and the same shitty arguments just redressed. Your entire argument is based on the assumption that glassing must be literal--even though you've even tried to claim that they don't have to be--except when you want them to be of course. You then go off to ignore other evidence. You want to take the literal approach with the books, but of course the fireballs only match 25 kt nuclear weapons. You also happily ignore other incidents of nuclear weapon warefare that give us 30-80 mt weapons. You want to ignore that the UNSC made heavy use of high explosives, meaning that one ship should butt rape their entire fleet--also doesn't happen. So really, just what are we supposed to do? Take your word for it? No. Fuck that. You can't take your shotty evidence and then go about ignoring other people's higher end stuff while ignoring all the contradictions that I've brought forth. Because just like your brother's arguments, it's fallen down to you bullshiting about KE impacts, you pulling out some obscure lower canon quote against higher canon, and you ignoring all the lower instances, which are actually fairly numerous in comparison as "low end" while trying to compare it to Star Trek, which has hundreds of episodes. What is this based off of? You never graduated, did you? Dude, a teraton level explosion would leave a very large crater. And I've still yet to understand where you're pulling this 1,000 kt fireball from. Probably because it hit other powered facilities on its way. The whole thing did blow up, did it not? You should ask him to take over part time. I probably wouldn't know the difference.

part 2 It's also refered to as glassing again, isn't it. So...what? How can you claim that I'm wrong in what they mean of glassing when you seem to suggest that I'm right more often? Because guess what? You can't glass most of a planet and still move around safely. Please see my other responses on lower canon sources. You stupid fuck. This is the last thing you'd want to show. You've just proven that not only am I correct in the games and the movies contradicting each other in terms of what's going on to these "glassed" planets, but you also showed us that the books are wrong about the actual glassing of Reach itself! So yes, it seems either the books are just plain wrong or Bungie decided to go in a different direction, which really isn't all that hard to believe. Really? Want to show everyone how clever you really are? Your quote my friend: a hundred meters across Guess how much energy you need to fulfill that obligation? The fireball radius of a 25 kt bomb is 100 meters. So...what did you just tell us? 1) that the current nuclear explosion from a plasma bomb is equal to a 25 kt bomb, which makes sense given that the UNSC uses high explosives as most of their antiship weapons and why 30 mt mines can take out multiple Covenant warships. 2), as we already know with Reach, they're clearly not being 100% literal as far as glassing goes. Dude, stop. Your own quote suggests a 25 kt nuclear explosion, I have higher canon that suggests that planets are not literally glassed, and higher canon that shows that despite half a continent being glassed, the effects were clearly not literal. Again--I don't give a fuck. The problem isn't that it's not a glassing because the Covenant bombarded the area, the problem is that they call it glassing and we don't see that effect. Clearly, the term is not literal. Your own evidence suggests the same thing. Doesn't work that way love. They're either one thing or another. You can't have it both ways. Still only 430 megatons. Not exactly the gigatons that you claim there to be. Prove it. I really don't recall that. Care to quote it? Not really, no. Your own source suggests a lower level blast for Covenant torpedoes. So really, this itself seems to suggest that Covenant level firepower is somewhere between 25 kt and 80 mt. Where was that? Your quotes do not show a 1,000 km fireball. They show a 100 meter fireball from a plasma torpedo, but that's about it. Stupid. Glassing significant portions of a continent would cause massive damage to the rest of the planet. No, I think I have a better theory. I believe that the Covenant's torpedoes are low kt to maybe double digit mt. This is supported by the fact that their enemies can rarely deploy more than mt level weapons. Obviously any sort of 'glassing' must come from the strange nature of plasma torpedoes, which Bungie itself has noted. Clearly then, there is a secondary action that occurs that allows for large scale 'glassing', sort of like nuclear fallout. This allows us to have parts of the planets glassed, but allow us to keep the effect we see in Halo Wars.

Sorry no, that still doesn't work. Being religiously devouted does not instantly mean you'll do something incredibly stupid. Try again. And that'd be fine--if people never refered to it as glassing. But they do. We get numerous indications that these planets have been "glassed" and yet we don't see it here in the highest canon. That indicates that their term for glassing does not have to be literal, which is supported by Halo 3. Gues what? The planet's in a shit load of trouble if half a continent was just literally glassed, especially if it happens to be mother fucking Africa. I don't care what weapon they used. Because unless said weapon is orders of magnitudes weaker, than it really doesn't matter. Nor would it automatically mean that just because they're performing a "strategic glassing" (ignoring that such a thing is absurd), that they have to use x weapon instead of y. And? Nuclear weapons are pretty much shown to be capable of taking out ships--or multiple ships in the MT range. And yet you still seem to be avoiding the main point Prophet; they call it glassing. They didn't call it partial or anything like that; they said the planet had been glassed. I care why? One shot it with what? What does that change? They still refer to it as glassing, which means that you yourself admit that it does not require it being literal. Which is again, you admitting that I'm right, but claiming that I'm wrong. Guess what? I don't care. It's lower canon that Halo Wars and Halo 3 which shows us the exact opposite. Is FS a game or a book? If its the later, I really don't care.

Looked better at SB. In any case, the explosions are horribly inaccurate, but the picture looks nice. As far as quantifying the Imperial, we know it uses a fusion reactor (a rather big one at that) and it has a lower estimation of at least 400 kt, easily 1.5 mt and probably a bit higher, givne said calculations are based off her old model the Venator, so chances are either upper single digit mt or low double digit around say 10-15 mt.

Part 3 If you look at the order that Picard texts to Troi, you'll see he called for full impulse. Given that the lowest speed for that is 100,000 km asecond to about 400,000 km a second, it probably hurt a great deal. Which again, given the technology at the time, around 100,000km a second. Awww, yes little boy, you keep jerking off to those absurdly low calculations! But in fact, let's get some of those. Clearly, I'm just dumping the bullshit terrawatt claim. If you really want to try that, just go and suck Wong's cock, because you're a waste of space here. As for your 400 GW bullshit, notice that the ship that did it also mopped the fucking surface of a planet in a nuclear holocaust. Oh, yeah, I suppose you're not going to mention that are you? Or how about the fact that any low-yield nuclear weapon would punc through those shields with ease? Something that you must amdit is possible because you've already pointed out the Pegasus incident, which at the very least requires that amount. And speaking of the Pegasus's asteroid, please show me where you came up for your calculations? Wong's site? The same one that basically assumes that the entire torpedo is located within the middle of the asteroid, therefore taking full 100% output from the torpeod rather than say, 25% or so that it's likely to get? You've cherry picked what now, four examples and you're not even good at it. Guess what Captain Fuck-All? Earth has a planetary shield. So chances are, what you see there are probably shots that leaked through the shield when the Breen were pounding the fuck out of it. Which really says a lot considering the level at which said weapons operate. Now let us look at examples from the games (with a bit of book support on the first one) that show high firepower: 1,000 km? Just what ass are you pulling that from? And why dear god, do you think it's 120 teratons when teh crater is described as only 5 km? Are you daft? An asteroid impact of that equal yield is about 450 megatons or so--which is exactly where you might expect to find the PoA. EDIT: Meanwhile, an old updated Connie that got its ass kicked by a miningship produced a massive fireball at least 26 km in size (ie, about 29 gigatons) and that was within the vacinity of a black hole, so chances are the explosion could have been much, much larger. And I remind you, it was slapped around by the Narada like a pimp and his hoe. And...what? I give jack shit about a damn trailer. Because the one for the Halo games had something similar; except it was never released like that at all. Gee. Imagine that.

Part 2 Gee, no shit sherlock. The problem is, you can't take your highest end quote crap and pass it off as uber yields when we have direct, massive contradictions to your own claims. Allow me to list them off: 1) Higher canon shows planets that were claimed to be glassed clearly not physically glassed. 2) The UNSC uses chemical weapons in their anti-ship designs. 3) A 30 megaton nuke took out about half a dozen Covenant ships. Shielded ones too. 4) A heavily protected UNSC base can only withstand up to an 80 megaton bomb. 5) The UNSC's ships are powered by fusion reactors. 6) Despite "glassing" Africa, the entire planet is clearly not up shit creek...which it would be if they had. 7) An asteroid punches through a Covenant cruiser in Halo 3 like its made of paper. 8) We see that the Spirit of Fire and another smaller Covenant ship damage each with sub-kt weapons. And yet according to your fandream, they have teratons. Yeah, please try again. That's fucking retarded. Who are they impressing? The people whose fleet they typically rape even when outnumbered? The people whose technology is probably decades behind their own at best? Or the people who've they ve beaten in multiple engagements for years? Psh, you're joking right? Do you know what happens in the following of low level megaton weapons? Firestorms. Massive, powerful firestorms. And that's not all, with high level energy beams firing into the oceans, you'd literally create storms so powerful that superhuricans would literally tear apart entire cities with ease. Between the radiation, the firestorms, the shockwaves, and the oh yeah, the fucking fallout, do you really think that they need to then literally glass the entire planet? Bullshit. No, I think what glassing is is more closer to that of The Return, where we're told that the Covenant ships glassed human settlements and military installations. Glassing may involve glassing certain areas with concentrated fire, but it doesn't mean the entire planet. In fact, it seems that more and more, it seems to be suggesting mostly nuclear bombardment, given Halo 3 and Halo Wars. Sorry my friend, if you can use outliers, then so can I. So it it going to be uber outliers, or are we going to play nice? Super rare weapon? Based on what? And if it's so rare, then how did the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order manage to get them aboard a secret space fleet of 40 ships? Nor was there any indication in the episode that the group had any sort of superweapon. Nor did either Odo or Garak challenge them when they claimed they were going to fuck an entire planet sideways. And while I respect Mr. O's theory with protomatter, I must say that since I no longer have to follow stupid, documenatry based rules, I prefer to use Mister Mike's theory regarding the yield of the weapon being placed in; ie, high amounts of antimatter stuffed into a torpedo and then fired. With high level compression technology, we could easily see massive parts of the planet destroyed, especially with phasers/disruptors performing mop up operations. Did I claim that they used half an ounce of antimatter? No. That would be silly. Clearly Spock had mispoken due to the writer's lack of understanding of antimatter at the time. Same with zero-point energy in terms of its possible capabilities. We just sorta ignore it here and move onwards. Dude, you haven't supported jack shit. You keep pointing to the novels. Why? Because that's where they support you and even still your arguments fall apart because we see clear indication of ships being taken out by far less than what you're claiming them to be. So you have precisly no evidence that glassing = literal glassing? In fact, you're saying that now it can pretty much mean orbital bombardment to wankaton yields, am I reading you correctly? Well, if that's the case, then where is the evidence that they perform massive glassing operations all the time? This is making your claim more and more absurd with every passing post. If we've already eliminted the concept that glassing = literal, then unless you have literal descriptions of such things, then your other examples are clearly outliers, especially in the face of things such as low mt weapons being a threat to Covenant ships. ...And? Soaked = wet. And? Again, I'm still not sure what that matters here. And it seems I was a bit mistaken on the 2/3rd the speed of light, there are variations from ship to ship. Voyager for example, was incapable of outrunning an Ion Storm moving at 2/3rds the speed of light. The Enterprise D on the other hand... Assuming that the Enterprise D came out of warp at around Jupiter (just like the Borg had), then we can get the distance that the Enterprise traveled in those 23 minutes, which is 550 million km, or 398,134.8637 km per second. The speed of light is 300,000 km per second. So the Enterprise D in that instance, was moving faster than the speed of light. Now, this is rather curious that Voyager couldn't match the Enterprise's top speeds, despite being a more modern design, but not really. Obviously the Enterprise D's larger Impulse engines are probably giving her a greater boost than Voyager, not to mention that while Voyager only has two of them, the Enterprise D has three, perhaps giving credit to Riker's early indication that keeping the saucer's impulse engines could prove valuable. In case you're wondering, the lower limit is the Enterprise 1701 Refit model where their speed is about 1/3rd the speed of light. Hey dumbass? Yeah, you. It's rather clear to anyone reading that that I'm not serious, so stop pretending that you're actually getting anywhere in terms of proving jack shit. Um, no? That you'll never prove. Unless of course, you resort to your methods on the Sci-fi forums, where you simply repeat the lowest, most absurdly stupid numbers you can find.

Well Prophet, we can either come up with two conclusions as to why someone would slag the entire surface of a planet in a literal sense: 1) They can't aim worth shit. 2) They're as stupid as aforementioned shit. Pick one, although chances are both are true. You see Prophet, unlike say...anyone with a missing brain, the military doesn't just bombard the fuck out of city or a town while collectively circle-jerking because they feel like it. And really, from what we've seen, the 'glassing' isn't literal: And yes, I know what your response is; you're going to just say that it was a tragic, tragic misunderstanding. That the Covenant were searching for an artifact--but guess what? The characters refer to the planet as glassed. Nor is this just a mistake in VFX, as the entire plot of one game is based upon it being a frozen wasteland. So what seems to be happening, at least as far as higher canon is going, that the glassing isn't literal in any sense, but rather just a term for mass nuclear bombardment, which matches up with what we see and it solves the issue of either the Covenant being incredibly dumb or crosseyed. I mean seriously, who the fuck literally glasses an entire planet? It's just fucking stupid. It's a waste of time and effort. Or does the Covenant have magical ship fuel that comes out of their ass? Because otherwise you're wasting a shit load of energy to pour into a planet simply because you want overkill. It's stupid and no one in their right mind would deploy it at that level. It further clashes with the fact that the UNSC has High Explosives as anti-ship weaponry--yet the Covenant you proclaim to use ship to ship yiled of gigatons or teratons. Whatever that bullshit is; I mean seriously, Star Wars eventually got that shit shafted, do you honestly think for one second I'm going to let you start that again with a sci-fi that's even less original than Star Wars? No. I give a fuck why? It may be, or maybe people there decided to live hundreds of km away from any other person and just have personal holodecks where they spend most of their time jerking off. It really doesn't tell us anything. Because chances are, they probably have a population spread out across a good portion of the planet. You did seem to imply it, didn't you? The fuck does that have to do with anything? I know, that would be a shame, wouldn't it? Or how about the whole highly fortified fortress being able to resist only 80 megatons? Or anti-ship weapons filled with chemical explosives. Or that UNSC ships are powered by fusion only? Strawman. That's not the point nor has it ever been. The point is that they nuked the planet and the people around them refered to it as glassing. Why is it refered to as glassing if it wasn't glassing? Or are you going to try and claim "well, they weren't being literal THAT time!" again? Instead going with lower canon sources in order to support your bullshit claims? Lower canon. Yes, certainly no sort of questioning should come in when 30 megaton mines take out numerous ships, high chemical weapons are used effectively against one side, and an 80 megaton proof bunker is supposed to make someone feel safe. Because all those things in no way goes against wankajoule yields. Small scale glassing? Do you realize how silly you sound sir? Glassing is just stupid plan and simple.

Ah. Enterprise. Well, they did have 'multi-spectral engines', so probably. Well yes, but that isn't because of what we see, so much as it is that they're involved and it's their product. Certainly that isn't to say that nothing on screen is important of course. Well, certainly lines that make no lick of sense should be discounted. For example, quotes from The Survivors indicating that a fraking starship getting its ass kicked by a ship with GJ level weapons even though both ships should logically be much stronger (ie, that same ship wasted the planet's surface and the Enterprise, knowing this before the enemy fired, were willing to fight). Or for something much simplier, Data calling a fish an amphibian or the half-ass statement from the Royale where Picard mentioned a mental puzzle that no one had ever solved--which was later solved (although DS9 tried to cover their asses on that one, but the point still remains). Or Spock's idea of half an ounce of antimatter blowing off half the atmosphere of a planet--they writers didn't know that while powerful, antimatter wasn't that powerful. I would agree. I think we should as a rule of thumb, take plot and dialogue over visuals, save for when it's rather apparent that the character is just plain talking out their ass. Like half of Voyager...

Because much like the Jedi, they prefer letting themselves stay on the edge of extinction because...well they're incredibly stupid. I mean, Palpy's plan basically hinged upon the rest of the Senate and the entire Jedi Order being so profoundly stupid that instead of just voting to have a Grand Army, they'll just give their power away to someone who pretty much already said he'd do it anyway. Or that the Clones were pretty clearly a sleeper army. Or that Palpatine in order to get into a position of power, he'd had to assume that the Naboo leaders wouldn't just have the Jedi tell the same Senate that sent them to investigate just what happened. Fortunately for him, they were that profoundly stupid.

The old FAQ? Well, Brannon Braga said he wanted to make an episode where they addressed that evolution wasn't always going to take humanity to the next level; that we might become less. He said that he learned his lesson, but later went on to try and do an entire series based off that premise...and it bombed. In short, they were running low on weed. Um...what? To what source do you have to back that up? Again, I don't mean to say that quotes should always be taken over visuals 100% of the time, but when we're going with weapon capabilities and characters who know better are being told that they're wrong because the visuals are either incapable of producing what the writers wanted or because someone fucked up--then we do need to question and more likely, dismiss it. Certainly, an argument of say hyperbole or some such is a good argument and one that should be taken seriously, but not when we're given in a very serious and precise manner as to what should be happening. Obviously if someone yells, "That thing could crack a planet!" we might wish to say, think twice if we just see several KT range nuclear explosions or if it's clear that the character may not being precise. However, when an engineer or a scientist says that a weapon will destroy x and the episode considers it to have fulfilled this obligation, we shouldn't ignore it because it's not 100% visually correct, same as with your weapon range examples. If someone says 'they missed by a mile' when it was clearly seven meters, we can assume they're being rather loose with their language. But when someone says "this is a fifty megaton bomb" and the cloud lasts only x instead of y, then I think we can let it go. It's more of a rule of thumb that should be supportable by the rest of the episode. Psh, I have three pink elephants and a green unicorn.

G: Movies and their novilizations, as well as the teleplays T: The Clone Wars and the 2012 live action series C: novels, sourcebooks, and the like. The Clone Wars movie is pretty uninspiring, and as far as the Jedi are concerned, pretty much shows that they're selfish assholes who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves...but it's still better than the rest of the prequels if simply because Anakin has been replaced by a younger and less wooden Chakotay. I might suggest very basic rules. I don't mean to suggest that the characters should always be taken seriously; obviously Data's line about a fish being an amphibian is just God aweful--but there's a reason for that. It was during the writer's strike and in the episode that was the crack of all shit TNG episodes The Outrageous Okana. On the other hand, the script is much closer to the intentions than a fucked up VFX and so it should be taken more seriously from a character who says that a 50 megaton bomb just went off rather than pick apart the VFX and say said character is basically a bat-shit moron because the cloud didn't last long enough; it's simply absurdities that people take too seriously. These aren't documentaries; they are TV shows. Let's treat them as such instead of holding them to a standard that will force 80% of all of it will fail to hold up to. I suppose the underlying message is that people be reasonable, but I guess that's just a naive dream. Still need to add much myself, just haven't had much time to focus on that sort of thing lately.

*sigh* Well, that I suppose is a question that someone might want answered. The answer is that the entire plan to take an ISD is just well...stupid. First off, the problem of reaching them. Surely, with a proper surprise attack, a ship can be hit pretty hard and even boarded. Cloak of Shadow from the TCW episode shows us that this is possible. However, it's very difficult. First, the attacking rebels will probably have to take out the particle shields. This will likely require a dozen or so Y-Wings with a fully loaded high yield proton torpedo compliment. We know from the good ICS that these are expensive, so this is going to be a costly fight with a very little possiblity of payback on the Rebel's part, despite the target bounty. In addition to this, the bombers are going to need a fighter escort both to draw away the point-defense guns away from the bombers, as well as to take care of any fighters or interceptors moving to stop the bombers. Finally, you'll need one or two boarding ships, which I can't imagine are cheap, as well as the stupid bastards crazy/stupid enough to go through with it. Now, assuming that the boarding ships have the required thicknes to allow them to penetrate through the ISD, they'll be setting every alarm off in the ship. Assuming that each one can carry say, even a dozen rebels and we assume say four, that's only forty-eight soldiers. Fifty against over a thousand other people are not good odds. Even more so, the Imperials are going to have the edge. First, they'll have the field advantage on several levels. The first is that these people live on an ISD; they know the best way to get around, the best areas to take cover, and the best areas to lay traps. Second, they not only have extensive knowledge that no rebel could, but they in turn have control over their environment in a way that's just not possible for the rebels or most ground combats. Artificial gravity, lights, air, and so forth would make this a very daunting process to take an ISD. The Battle Droids in Cloak of Darkness were fortunate in that most of those problems, save for maybe gravity wouldn't affect them. More so, their task was to never take the ship or even free the prisoner. It was a simple distraction to keep the Jedi busy. Then we add on that most of the Impeirals will be armed and will greatly outnumer the Rebels. Now, the large size of the Imperial might reduce that edge somewhat, but once the Imperials get their act together, it's not going to work out well. And finally, we get to another crux of the issue. In order to take the ship, they're probably going to need a good R2 unit, an expert hacker, several expert engineers up-to-date on the latest technologies, and probably the gear to equip them with. This means that their pretty much shooting themselves in the foot as far as personal goes because in a boarding action, they can't rely on all or even half of the boarding ships to make it (even though we sorta assume that here). That means every team is going to need an R2 unit, every team is going to need an engineer, a hacker, and the equipment for it. That's at least three people in those 12 member pods who are going to have to be non-combat just in order to have a chance. And chances are, you're going to need two or three engineers. Assuming that the Rebels are taking a big risk here and only doing on per boarding ship, that reduces our number from forty-eight to thirty-six; a pod's worth of people dedicated soly to non-combat. And then, even if we assume that for some reason the combat is going well, the Rebels are going to have to hack critically protected parts of the ship and secure a way to keep the Imperials from a) calling for help and activating a self-destruct. All of which are going to be absurdly hard to do. And even if they manage to do that--even if they manage to overcome all the stupidly unstoppable odds...they'll still get their asses handed to them when the first ISD shows up to lend a hand and the one they're currently hi-jacking is floating dead in space because they don't have the personal to use it. Now, there are ways around this--but each of these requires a greater and greater amount of potential of revealing themselves and expending more valualbe personal and more people. In short, the only effective way to take an ISD is to pound the entire ship into a crippled state with another ship (or even a strike team of bombers) and either use that ship or a large transport of troops and specialized personal to take the ship, hack it, and escape with it. In all respects, they're looking at least low hundred losses in life and going up against a heavily armed and shielded warship in a battle that if it will not at least end in disaster, will require thousands, if not millions of credits to repair for such a risky attempt. In short; it isn't worth it. Because even if you capture it...so what? The Empire has another quarter million just like it and will stop at nothing to get it back, so it only acts as a target and it would still require a massive crew to keep it going as well as to use it in combat. It's far better to make a sneak attack and either cripple the ship or destroy it beyond repair so the Empire is out millions or billions of credits. Ie, hurt them where it hurts a government most; its wallet. God knows that's already strained as it is.

I do believe this is because they were doing something to the atmosphere, not due to their actual weapon capabilities. Granted, it could be weaponized, but it's not like that's a big deal. Sisko could do that with some stuff offhand. ...What? I'm sorry, I had to do a double take because I didn't think you were that amazingly stupid. What do you mean in only kills all life? Do you realized that bigger is not always better? You're like a party line USSR politician still masturbating to the fact that you detonated the largest nuclear weapon to date, but fail to realize that you've only had to because your people can't aim for shit and the Americans can perform the very same effect with a quarter of the yield because they can. Why would they? There are what...20 million people Picard said? Why in the fuck would you put them all in the same place? Nor is it logical for a colony to do so. People would want some land, different climates, different areas for minning, or what have you. It's a stupid as fuck idea that they'd all live in one big massive city. Possible? Surely. Plausible? Fuck no. We already saw a great deal of atmospheric disturbance, nor do we know what the planet's vegetation looked like. What if it was all an off brown that shows healthy vegetation rather than a nice bright or dark green? And if it was dying, why the fuck would anyone want to settle on it? Shits and giggles? Well my USSR executive, we can do one of two things. We can either look at the more reasonable explination that I provided to your erm, brother and that being that the "glassings" are not literal due to what we see in Canon Wars, or I can just point to the Die is Cast, where the character explicitely said that they can destroy the crust in an hour and the mantle in five with about 40 starships. Yeah, you go ahead and tell the people of said planet that; "Don't worry! They can simply kill you all from orbit with minimal effort, but they can't burn away the oceans!" Which again you Commie, is just more evidence that you really understand as much about nuclear warfare as Jason does taking a starship with a few one-manned fighters. Why the fuck would you bother vaporizing an ocean when all life on the planet is dead? Do you at all realize how much a waste of fucking energy that is? ...And? It's not like they haven't displayed impressive power before. The Obsession bomb, for all its technobabble nonsense, can put a massive crater the size of a continent on the surface of a freaking planet. Or The Die is Cast, to which I repeat, the Cardassian-Romulan alliance had the power to burn away a crust and mantle in a quarter of a day. You mean despite your lack of evidence and despite the fact that they used everyday torpedoes to do the job--am I right? And so did The Die is Cast as far as we can tell. We can all play this game profit. Unfortuantely for you, I have several series and eleven movies to draw from. You have four stale games and half a dozen shitty novels. Even though everyone still refered to it as glassing. But let's not have that get in the way of your masturbation you dirty commie. And of course, it's not like Star Trek has ever had battles at FTL speeds or fought at 1/3rd or 2/3rd the speed of light or anything/ Where is all this lost technology bullcrap coming from? Of course' date=' if we play your line of reasoning, we'd assume the Federation actually had one torpedo and they were just going to have to cut it in half. Of course, Data also refered to said asteroid as a 'planetary' body, which makes me doubt that the scaling for that thing is 100% correct. Again, what do you base this on? The fact that you say so? Where's your reasoning to back it up?

Ad hominem. Again. I'm well aware of the scene. What I want is evidence (from you) that the asteroid was vaporized.

Evidence that said asteroid was vaporized? The fact is, as many have already pointed out, if it were vaporized, it would have happened very differently. And while yes, I am a fan of prefering story and plot over visual effects, this was a visual effect and it doesn't clearly show to me that the asteroid was vaporized.

Which requires... 1) charted hyperspace lanes 2) the enemy being unable to penetrate the projetile's defenses 3) A massive fucking ship And is now loss forever and was pretty much a WTF technology given how remarkably stupid it was in context. Ah yes, the tons of planets. Like the two whole planets it blew up before a one-man fighter fired two proton torpedoes up its tailpipe and turned it into a bright ball of plasma? And again, I must ask how this has to do with the fact that the Federation still doesn't need to rely upon one super-ship/station-that-will-never-be-seen-again and instead has basically torpedo versions that can work on any ship and be easily deployed fleet wide.

Part 2: . Go ahead. What? Dude, their entire hyperlane routes are forged based on large celestial bodies. Ships of large size, such as the SSD, would require 12 parsec routes around a fucking nebula. The Death Star I can only imagine is going to be facing a great deal of more problems, as would others. The larger the ship, the larger the problems. And this is despite the fact that every planet in the Galaxy (or known galaxy) is recorded in the Jedi Archives. They have a complete picture and they'd still lose the Outer Rim. With the ST galaxy, it's an entire blank slot. Yoda and Ben looked at a map of the fucking galaxy. They literally had enough information that they realized that despite a planet being deleted off the map, that they could still indicate that the gravity in the area hadn't changed. Which is rather vital information for hyerplanes as far as that goes too, so you're still up shit creek buddy. Poorly explored stil = explored. And what, you think they can suddenly pull millions of these things out of their asses now? Why? Why not use that for finding the Rebels? Surely they were using proper searching methods, but if they can so easily toss out those numbers, why not use them to spot the rebels quicker? Sitty? No, not really. The fact is that hyperdrive relies on an extensive network of constant information and mantainance--something that the Empire just doesn't have set up in the ST galaxy. Hell, the longer it takes for them to map out the better really since they can just build a fleet for just this invasion. Because in your drug addled world, nations have no problem with strange sensor probes flying around in their sustems. Because...well because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry, that doesn't work. Prove that there's enough of a budget left to allow for a shit load of probe droids when we didn't see these millions, or even tens of thousands of probes in Empire Strikes Back. Where they were using thousands. Because spotting an unusual probe in orbit of one of their planets a few days or even weeks later won't put the Federation on high alert. Nor will the fact that reports will be coming in that such things are widespread across the Alpha-Beta Quadrant. Nope. Yes, by claiming that what is clearly a massive probe spam throghout multiple territories followed up by an attack on several planets from an unknown source afterwards, is going to give the Empire the image of someone who lookes like they're totally not going to try and fuck you over. Oh wait, it's incredibly suspicious and obvious. Especially when the Federation realizes what's going on and warns the Klingons (who are close allies and are practically itching to go to war) and the Romulans, Tholians, and other major powers will quickly be alterted. Did you miss that part about the entire fleet focusing their friepower upon the Super Star Destroyer? Not really. Even in a poorly explored area--it's still explored. In fact, if the area has a reputation of being unexplorable, it often suggests that people have tried and often failed, suggesting that certain routes and areas are clearly not going to work. Again, along with the finding the Rebels, part of finding the right way is knowing where not to go. If Palpatine had the information of where many ventures failed, then he could clearly locate areas that were not to fail, search for similar signs, and then send the probes to the areas where they didn't see that sort of thing. You have not proven it. Do so now. How about Empire Strikes Back genius? The probe droid had to land in order to get a detailed scan of the Rebel base--footage that we saw relayed back to Vader's fleet. Yes, like in the three years when their Empire collapses like a house of cards and becomes the small Imperial Reminant, they'll clearly have the time, resources, and manpower to take out the Federation because the rest of their Galaxy has already labled them as the asscrack of theirs.

Based on what options? Besides the 10%? So despite the fact that this is the #1 ship producing ship in the Rebellion, the Emperor is too much of a dumbass to simply send four or five ISDs to the Mon Calamari system and watch as they rape their forces? Which again brings up the question; if the Empire has 10% in reserve, then why aren't they using it? These guys can deploy ships from the Core to the outer rim in a few days. You're literally talking about a week's worth of effort to bring down the one thing making the Rebellion a threat in ship to ship. Which is why said quote specifically says they couldn't. Either the Empire didn't have the ships or they're all fucking dipshits. How? How does it prove that the Mons aren't a threat? Prove your claims for the KDY's ship production capabilities. Try not to use the game mechanics from a source book. So you basically just said "yes, showing the Empire sparing that force for a far greater effort that could win the entire war for them is much more important than even the Rebellion's shipyards", but it still proves I'm right? Bullshit. And even if it did, that's still not enough forces to take down the Federation. And every one of those ships lost would cost the Empire billions of credits. Very well. So that pretty much kills Imperial firepower, am I correct on that point? Based on what evidence? Of course it had a large budget. And guess what partially killed them? That large budget. Think about this; the Venator cost 59 million credits. The Venators carried a decent level of firepower and were a match beyond anything that wasn't a true capital ship, assuming a decent amount of fighter defensive abilities. Certainly better than anything the Rebels could have at the time of the ISD. With the funds for one, listen to that...ONE Imperial Star Destroyer, you could have created 65.7 Venators. The entire Imperial line would fund 1.64 million Venators alone. This isn't including the absurdly stupid programs such as the Death Star or the Super Star Destroyer. Even assuming the SSD only costs 4x as much as the ISD, you could have bought another 236 Venators. How many of those did they make? Four or so? 1,052 Venators. And the Death Star? Let's only assume they cost say a 1,000x as much as the SSD (easily low calculations). What do we get then? 263,050 thousand Venators. Fuck, just by eliminating the first DS, the 25,000 ISDs, and the SSDs, we get 1,944,102 Venator class Star Destroyers that could have easily beefed up the Empire's presence. And not only that, but because the ship would be in service for so long, it would actually be much cheaper to produce due to the industry adapting to it. In other words, the Empire could easily get another 2 million warships that would outmatch anything any pirate or individual planet could muster and even if the planets/rebels did, the Empire could simply pull a few of them from another system and crush the enemy with numbers and overwhelming firepower. And that's not even going into the waste that was the second Death Star. Or the Eclipse. Or the Galaxy Gun )actually, that was actually a good weapon) or anything like that. And guess what the low end number for the Empire's fleet is? 4 million, possibly up to maybe 10 million. That means in the best case, that simple act of cutting out all those oversized, overpowered warships would have increased the fleet size by 50% and at worst, probably by 20%. The reason why the Empire can't respond to threats well isn't because they don't feel like it--nor is their budget and indication that they have a strong industry. It's in fact, a strong indication that the Empire is going downhill. Why? Let's see, the ruler has a massive, overpowered station created with the capability to destroy a planet, but even wavering that we see that a good portion of it is spent upon a ship that is way overpowered. It's literally like buying a 5 kt bomb to take care of a roach problem. Based on what? Do you understand how stupid that sounds? Just what do you think would happen if the United Stats started spending money on carriers that costs more than what the average state makes in a year as a mainstream ship? Yeah, the Union could very easily snap in half. Because the entire prospect is fucking retarded. The only reason the Empire was able to afford it as opposed to America is because instead of fifty states they can drain money out of, they've got thousands. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of planets. The SSD came long after the introduction of the ISD, so by that time it was clear who had won what was to be done with the money. Also note they only made like, less than six. They made tens of thousands of ISDs. 1) Jesus, you don't think that's an indication that they were having budget cut issues? And you want to increase that problem? Fuck, the Advanced TIE was basically kicked off because they decided that basic shielding was too god damn expensive. 2) No one knew about it? That's it? That's your best answer? Of course no one knew about it you dumbass. They hid it in a fucking galaxy. I don't know about you, but that sounds like it might be a wee bit difficult to find, especially when one side controls the holonets and the vast majority of information. The only impressive part is that they were able to keep mouths shut, but that wouldn't be an indication of money so much as discipline and a doctorine of fear. Let's play a game. Go to a foreign country, buy a plan with sophisticated sensor technology, and then fly it back over to the States. See how long it'll take for the US Air Force to shoot your ass down. ...What? No, no you're shitting me. You honestly don't believe anyone is that fucking stupid do you? Oh yeah, I can see that; Romulans: We detected and caught a probe with high level sensor capabilities near one of our military outposts. Care to explain? Palpy: Um...we wanted to trade? Romulans: No. Palpy: Diplomatic...er... Romulans: No. Palpy:...uh, scientific explor-- Romulans: We don't even buy it from the people who've been doing that for the past two centuries. I mean seriously...what the fuck? The Klingons saw the rearrangement of the Cardassian Union as evidence that the Founders were behind the entire thing--and invaded them. The Romulans have their own secret police force and even joined up with the Cardassian's secret police force to commit mass genocide against the Founders for posing a threat to them. Fuck, even the peace loving, trusting Captain Picard called bullshit on the Cardassians building "science stations" in a part of space near three Federation sectors. No one is fucking stupid enough to buy that line of shit. They'd probably shoot the dumbass who fed them that line simply because it's that fucking insulting. Big presumption. Ah what? Why would the Empire suddenly do a 360 in the way they act? They don't go slinking around systems like pussies. They're infamous in their own galaxy for political pressure in forcing planets to join and even threaten them by indicating the large Imperial warmachine. They even make examples of other planets to encourage people to join. And suddenly they're going to start pussyfooting around? Nope. Not buying it. Again, based on what evidence? We already know that a large amounts of cash have been spent upon ISDs, SSDs, and a Death Star. They literally have to fly cheap ass fighters with no shields--something that decade old ships had as standard. And you want me to believe that they'll spam an area with millions or billions of probes? Bullshit. Provide your evidence.

The TCW is T Canon, not G canon. And while true, we should also note then, that it doesn't just come from visuals. We see that logically, they do not have the sort of firepower that Saxton claims. The most famous example is the asteroid field from Downfall of a Droid, where we see that Grievous and Anakin both consider it to be an obstacle. When in fact, if the shielding was so powerful--and if some say, powerful enought to ram through a Galaxy Class Starship without noticing, then we should have seen it here. We didn't. I k I have a problem period taking visuals over what the writers themselves wrote. It's really stupid that someone should consistantly write that a ship can move at 2/3rd the speed of light, but because visually that's not practically possible, then according to the classic debate methods, the writers are wrong. It should be the other way around. We shouldn't assume that characters are pathelogical liars are retards. That doesn't mean visuals are useless, but they should be considered secondary to the plot. Anyways, we seem to be derailing a number of threads because it seems there is some desire to quantify the ISD, so I will make a quantifaction thread in the SW only portion of the site.

Saxton did it for the Clone Wars. The others were done by entirely different authors and in fact, make no mention of yields or anything for the original Star Wars. And there's probably a damn good reason as to why.