Mith

That's pretty funny since it pretty much drops all firepower capabilities for Star Wars down to a few kilotons at most. Enjoy the ensuing assraping of 8472.

Or, they could wait about three years for the whole thing to fall in upon itself like a house of cards.

Surely not good sir. ...Says who? I find this to be a rather curious statement. First, it is not required. You can assure death of all life on a planet with megatons of energy and some time to spare, especially with 24 hours. In fact, they fire pretty god-damn fast. Looking at Clone Wars, we see that their ships have a full auto capability. As in, they can fire about three pulses per second. That's pretty fast. Let's assume 1 megaton per pulse, just for kicks. Better yet, we'll only use the 8 large batteries on the ISDs. Now, assuming they can fire at the same rate (and there's no reason they can't--it'd be stupid not to be able to), a single barrel can fire about 180 pulses a minute and 10,800 pulses an hour. Within the alloted time frame, that's 259,200 pulses. Now, assuming we only have one barrel on each each gun firing (no big deal really), that's 2,073,600 shots. Now let's multiply that by three ISDs and we get 6,220,800 shots from the ISDs. Now, in reality it's going to be two barrels at least, but that's okay since the shots will probably land in a reasonable same area. So thus far, just looking at the main guns of the ship and not the many others, we get 12,411,600 megatons poured into the planet. That's a total of about 12.4 teratons spread over the planet. It's not even including bombardment craft or the like that may have assisted. And chances are, the destruction, due to more guns, is going to do about six times as many shots as that. As in, over 40 million targets the ISDs can pin point and blast to hell with a single shot of their double barrel weapons. Look at this: http://www.carloslabs.com/node/16 Pick your hometown and test out the 1.4 megaton nuke. Zoom out and look at how far the effects goes. Now imagine hundreds of thousands of them raining down upon the planet every five minutes. That's not even looking to other fighters and bombers that we know perform mop-up operations. For a quick and dirty DBZ, this would ensure that just about any planet you bombard will not have survivors with a properly planned bombardment. Of course, even if we were to grant you these gigatons, you seem to be forgetting about the orginal BDZ; General Order 24. An order that a single Starship such as the Enterprise can carry out with an armament of about 100 photon torpedoes and her phaser banks. By your logic, the Enterprise 1701 has the firepower of roughly three ISDs. Is that why we've seen routinly that Starfleet is more than willing to drop that concept at the drop of the hat in face of destruction? Think about it. Kirk was willing to destroy himself and his ship in many scenarios to keep the Federation or even his crew alive. Picard even wrote off Troi's complaint that they didn't have the right to use a Borg teen as a weapon against the Borg. Sisko infected an entire Maquis colony to show his former head of security that he meant business. And Janeway...well, Janeway was willing to vaporize a building with her in it. Your argument is stupid. We have multiple cases showing that the UFP will sink to low levels to get out alive if they have to. The very existence of Section 31 confirms that.

The UFP has plenty of fighters. They're mostly only used in large fleet battles. Well, it took three days right? That's at least 122. Even with the entire Federation working to crank them out, you would probably have hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million. It'd be a complete and utter waste though. If a ISD can easily overpower a GCS, then what the fuck would an ST fighter/bomber do exactly? Jack shit. ST bombers aren't designed like the SW variant, which are supposed to a type of heavy offensive. Ie, fighters are rarely considered a threat. To give you an idea, it took an entire squadron to deal moderate damage to the Cardassian portion of the fleet in Operation Return and it was only a tactic used by Sisko to piss them off. Your avergae Cardassian ship is probably about the equal to an old Excelsior class starship. Now compare that to a Galaxy class starship, which could probably take two to one odds--maybe even three to one with a competent commander and full on volleys of firepower. You'd need multiple squadrons. Probably in the range of like 20 or 30 to one just to have a chance of winning and no doubt that hte GCS could just warp away and fire from longer ranges. Against the Star Destroyer? Why? It'd just kick its ass the old fashioned way. Against a squadron of fighters? Stupid as fuck. It's best against a large, low-mobile target, not multiple small and highly mobile ones. DOn't get me wrong, their aim is bad and fighters would prove effective against them, more so in the case of Star Trek, but this idea of yours is just fucking retarded. The idea of a billion fighters is just stupid. Fighters have lower ranges, weaker shields, weaker weapons, lower fuel supplies, and limited range and speed--which is the last thing the UFP needs to give up. Shadow of Malevolence. We see Anakin's squadron lose nearly half their fighters when he started their run and he was forced to abandon their primary target for a secondary one because the fire was too heavy. Now mind you, the aim was absolutely horrible given the sheer volume that the Malevolence had given out, but that's another story. By the time of Episodes IV and VII, the Empire and most people in the movies considered fighters to be about as dangerous as a man with a bag of rocks. Therefore, most of the ISDs were not designed to be capable of fighting fighters because fighters were considered to be a secondary form of offense now; the Empire only used them against lesser targerts or at all because less powerful ships were still vulnerable to them. And even then, their fighters were cheap pieces of shit. In the EU, when the Empire had learned that fighters could be a threat still, they designed a ship class to counter them. Mind you, it was a piece of crap (ie, half the weapons would stop working in battle), but it would be a major threat to fighters. That's not to mention that ISDs rarely if ever worked alone or even with other ISDs. Most of the time they had frigates and lesser cruisers that were more adapt to fighting smaller, more agile enemies than an ISD. Seriously, why the fuck can't you type well? And? Just because America can build a warship in one year doesn't mean that we have hundreds of them now. In times of peace, warship construction is low and a build up is only done in times of war. The UFP had 30,000 when the war with the Dominion began, which if I recall, is like half or a third of the ships they ever built. There is a difference between building one ship or fighter quickly and consistantly building them quickly over the period of a year. ST torpedoes are pretty fast actually. I have no idea where you got the idea of them being slow. They can cover thousands of km in seconds. See The Wounded. And drop the retard jamming claim, we've seen both sides miss horrible at spitting distances when visual alone would confirm solid hits. See Destroy Malvolence. Or not considering that a galaxy class ship could jump to warp and leave them far behind as it bombards the planet that the fighters were defending. Or sets five torpedoes to maximum yield and dispersal and watches as about a third of their forces illuminates space. Really? Because in most battles' date=' we see hundreds of Federation ships and maybe a possible hundred or two from fighter squadrons. They really don't have that many. And for a good reason too given that they're probably just there to fire more torpedoes and annoy enemy forces while the starships do the real work. No it isn't. One of their weaknesses is against one-man fighters. However, if that was their main weakness, the constant battle scenario would include ships immediately deploying fighters and bombers to hit the other side. As we've seen thus far in Clone Wars however, they do not employ massive fighter/bomber walls. We do however, see them making heavy uses of them which does imply that they are useful, to which is logical, but they just as often fire the main cannons. Which world are you from? anti-aircraft weapons in WWII were far from perfect and weren't much more accurate than SW versions. The only difference is that in Star Wars, they have a nasty tendency to fly in tight formations at the enenmy even when they have all their guns firing at them. From my understanding, most fighters would try and shake it up a bit, though I think bombers did keep formation, if only because they had fighters to protect them and distract the enemy. 1) No, an ISD would get its ass kicked. 2) Mass fighters is a stupid idea you idiot. ST weapons are really accurate. They hit like 70% of the time or more, which is actually pretty accurate for weapons. Wars does have pretty bad aim, hitting like 20-30% of the time. That's counteracted by the mass number of shots they put out so they still tend to hit their targets more often than not.

Dude, what in the fuck did you just say? Slow down and write out your sentences completely.

Probably because it's so silly. It was probably an experimental thing that Starfleet was trying out, just like the holographic viewscreen. But really, unless you're having a multiple six way chat with people, a holographic device really isn't all that useful--and even then not much if you don't mind squinting at the screen. Sisko used the splitscreen thing more than once while talking to Ross and Martok. It's just that it's over the top; it's cheaper and easier to use the normal screens. Holographic emitters might be available, but chances are that they're probably not used all that often.

Well, this is actually a sort of silly argument. In general, each has its own advantages. In terms of portability, badges and wrist communicators are about the same in size and have about the same range. The badge does a little more though, but that's not really a big deal. In addition, each one has a limited range as to what their communicators can reach in terms of distance without a network to support it. In this case, Starfleet has a network that encompasses a large amount of their territory, so most of the time it's live. In that case however, Star Wars has the advantage because their faster FTL has given them greater communication ranges as well, thanks to distribution of their communications. In other words, Star Wars is probably only a bit more advanced in terms of range, since they still require a massive holonet to keep it working. On the point of 2D vs 3D...are you shitting me? That has about jack shit to do with range and very little to do with anything. Both sides can clearly hold that much data in their banks. Just because people seem to use screens more often (most often because they're using a camera on a computer), doesn't mean they're less advanced. Especially when we've seen that holoemitters are far more accurate and crisper on ST's side. Where as Star Wars looks like it uses old Atari coloring. EDIT: In the Chase, we see Dr. Crusher's tricorder was instantly reconfigured to project a hologram of a humanoid. Guess what? Perfect life sized picture. Given all the shit a medical tricorder can do and the memory it probably has, I think that pretty much firmly puts the nail in the coffin that Trek's holographic technology is light years ahead of the Empire.

Eh? I wasn't asking for help. I was asking about opinions regarding my argument. In fact, most of what was talked about were my points and their weakpoints, which was in fact, the point. And I argued against some of those points. Strange as it may sound, but people who generally are held in higher opinion in my eyes carry around more weight when they tell me something's wrong. Even if I disagree. Such as...? How is that? We clearly see that ST has a far, far more storage capacity than anything the Empire has shown to. No doubt both are impressive, but Trek clearly has the advantage in computer sciences. Is that so? So get this, the small yellow block is enough for the acive memory of two AIs who believe they're in a shuttle half way to a planet. the module on the bottom is capable of holding enough memory and adventures fot last them a lifetime without them knowing any better. So I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on your argument then and there. So already, we see that there is no problem in minaturizing the inforamtion that an AI has, if two AIs on active memory can partake in a realistic simulation in just a small yellow block. Second, is that Trek can clearly hold a large amount of data: Emergency transporter. Unless this device uses some sort of cheat (which is possible), it has the ability to store the information of one individual and break apart their body into small subatomic molecules and beam them at least a few kilometers...then put itself and the target back together again. But that's probably an unfair example. What isn't is that a modified shuttle could download an entire sector load of information; ie, every centimeter before filling up and that this was effortlessly downloaded into Voyager. Hell, Voyager itself has a vast database upon it; it was able to get information on Seven's parents and pretty much anything else they've ever needed in terms of medical, science, an engineering. Never once has someone asked for some biological sample and the computer tell them that it wasn't stored on memory. Let's put it this way; restoring Chakotay's brain required fifty gigaquads (it's a made up thing by the way) of memory. The Enterprise D was able to hold at least about 6 billion minds (the modern population of Earth compared to that of an advanced alien culture). That comes out to about 300,000,000 teraquads. The shuttle that had scanned an entire sector of space (abouta 10 LY radius, possibly more) had contained 5 billion gigaquads. About 1/60th of the minimal memory that the Enterprise D needed. It should also be noted that the Enterprise D was also capable of using several of its other systems that required memory, such as sensors and life support, so we can probably add in a bit more for basic operations, but the Enterprise D was stated to be filled to the brim, so chances are there wasn't much else in terms of memory and this is probably fairly accurate. So yeah, something that can hold the memory of every centimeter within 600 LY in a single, 600 meter ship is probably a shit load more than any ISD could hope to contain. Hogwash. ST clearly has the ability to make intelligent AIs and run them within small spaces, as we've clearly seen from Ship in a Bottle and their starships can clearly hold a great deal of information, as per the Enterprise D's feat of storing about six billion minds on its hardrive.

Um, General Grievous is a cyborg. That's made explicitly clear in the Clone Wars saga and in many EU sources. He's closer to someone like Darth Vader in that terms, and was probably a sort of reference to that character due to their physical nature and their breathing issues (ie, Vader needs an aparatus and Grievous is known to have the occasional coughing fits). Now granted, Grievous is clearly their best work compared to Vader. And we do know they can create competent combat droids such as the B3 Commando, but they're expensive and can still lose to clones. They're like, one of two droids that are actually a threat to anyone without requiring twenty to one odds.

Come again? No they aren't. Your average marginal holographic villian on a enlarged entertainment center has more wits about him then your average B1. And it's very clear that the Federation is capable of building intelligent devices--nor is it much of a stretch for them to build mechanical parts that function as the human body as we see them replacing lost limbs with mechanical ones such as Nog's leg. Based on what? They can physically make a robot. That isn't that hard for them. Data was able to do it all by himself. Because they're Soong-type androids, which rely on positronic nets that are incredibly unstable. Data's daughter died because her net broke down. But Data was able to get her up and running for about a week and she worked just fine. Some success? Some success? The EMH Mark I was programmed with 5 million medical treatments from two thousand medical references and the experience of 47 experienced medical officers. It was also designed to learn and adapt to new diseases and to learn. They're even stated to be more developed than even the most highly evolved humanoid brains. Compare that to C3PO who despite his 6 million languages, isn't all that bright, nor are any but the most expensive and most fucked up AIs such as R2 capable of coming close to that mark. And this was the first program that was mass produced throughout Starfleet and later replaced and tossed in the garbage bin to help keep it clean. That's like calling the Tsar's 50 megaton warhead a smoke bomb. If Starfleet manages to mass produce the doctor's mobile emitter, such a device would literally make every droid in Star Wars 90% absolete. Imagine an army of soldiers with one small, heavily armored weak point with perfect presicion, no moral issues, and the ability to learn and adapt to the enemy. Now set it to god mode. Compare that to a B1. Wrong. A starfleet scientist wanted to disassemble Data so he could try and learn how the android's brain worked. Of course, Data said no because the fag didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Um, no. Not as far as I'm talking about. All the MK1s were given equal knowledge and if they had the same chance as he did (and probably do now given their current occupation), would have evolved similarily given that they're essentially the same god damn person from scratch. By the end of the Dominion War, they had a Mark IV and we know that they were even working on LMH; Long-term Medical Holograms for remote outposts. These were designed for the purpose of being fully interactive, while the Mark I was not. Ie, it was to be so close to human that no one would be able to tell. Nor were the exocomps exactly unique. They were three of them made and the scientist who made them didn't bite the dust and the Enterprise D had done extensive studies of them. In short, it isn't lost technology. The reason that Starfleet doesn't use robots and androids is that 1) is morally questionable given their society and 2) they've already had highly dangerous AIs go batshit on them in the past, costing them ships and lives. Same with the Soong series, except they have a problem with being incredibly complex brains and high rate of failure. And? Which one would you rather have as your doctor? The doctor with a large sum of the latest medical technology and treatments with the ability to adapt to any anomalies and cured someone of flesh devouring alien cells or a medical droid who can't save a woman dying of a broken heart? Okay. In conclusion, SW may have a large mass produced system of robots and more advances in robotics as far as experienced and production values are concerned--but they're nothing in terms of the sophistication that the rare UFP AI or android has. Do you think that anyone beyond a Pakled or a Kazon would even consider buying a B1 for anything? Or C3PO? They're all incredibly dated compared to their technology.

Well, this is sort of all over the place. In terms of computational power, the ST universe is clear ahead, which was the question, not which one has more artificial life. Because as we saw, your average Data or hell, EMH is far more intelligent and knowledgable than just about any droid we've seen. Can C3PO translates millions of languages? Sure. But that's all he's really good for. Data on the other hand, is a literal walking dictionary and is capable of running multiple things in his head at once, is capable of heavily modifying weapons, is capable of building complicated structures at blurred speed, is capable of performing android-brain surgery with such speeds that an admiral had trouble keeping up with them, putting in a fairly lengthy code, and multiple other things. That's not even metioning his extensive knowledge in science, engineering, philisophy, history, and culture. C3PO in comparison...is a third rate android. And it's not just Data; Lore was also intelligent, just an evil douche. B-4 was less intelligent, but still capable of sleeper agent methods and has the excuse of being a prototype. Even going farther than that, the EMH was capable of becoming his own person and had the vast majority of Federation medical knowledge in his database. He was also capable of thinking for himself and improvising as tme went on, as well as learning opera and wrote his own book. Compare that to an SW medical droid, which...probably not so much. Or again, C3PO, whose limited to his programming to a very extreme degree. And of course, the doctor in Voyager was a Mark I and had already been replaced by a Mark II before the series was even over. What did Starfleet do with all the holograms with the most intelligent medical minds ever created? They put them to work shoveling trash. It's also worth noting that the Federation has had the ability to create intelligent computers for some time--it was done by Doctor Daystrom; he created a computer based off his own mind. While it was a failure due to his own personal problems being reflected by the computer, we clearly see that the capability for intelligence is already in Starfleet technology. Fuck, Wesley accidently created an intelligent hologram because he asked the computer to boost the difficulty setting to Data's level. And that hologram later made another hologram sentient (a bit debatable given that she seemed rather easily led in the episode). And that's not even considering the Voyager episodes with semi-intelligent life. All doable from the holodeck. So to claim that Trek is incapable of creating sentient life is rather foolhardy. One woman even created intelligent repair droids. It seems to me that those with positronic brains are really the ones that are difficult to create, not so much artificial life. And then again, we see that creating a positronic brain and getting it to work isn't the problem in terms of complexity, but so much as it is that positronic brains have a high degrading problem that means they have a life span ranging about a week; DR. Soong himself ran through a dozen or so of them, according to his android wife. It's also worth noting that even the most intelligent droids in SW are also rather stupid. Mass produced B1s are as dumb as dirt, B2s aren't much better, Droidkedas are rather battle oriented, Spider droids and their line are just like the last, and Commando Droids theemselves are the only ones that appear remotedly competent and cost a shit load of money--and they're not even close in terms of combat capability or intelligence as Data is either, given that clones can still beat them in hand to hand combat. Now, back to the terms of computational power, a Galaxy class starship is capable of holding the minds of billions of people; ie, an entire planet's worth while still having enough memory for basic life support and minimal operation (ie, no antimatter breach or some such). We also know that Voyager's shuttle from Threshold (shudder) every centimeter within their sector--which just to tell you, sectors require a day for the Enterprise D to scan and it can scan up to 10 LY at a time--so at least about 10 light years. It's also worth mentioning that said sensors were able to retrieve these scans at not only faster than light velocities, but infinite velocities (or near infinite more probably...somehow...never made much sense). This was then just dumped into Voyager, which already had a shit load of information on it--including a file on Seven and her family--three nobody scientists that vanished decades ago, not to mention the shit load of memory that's required for the holodecks to run to the point that each hologram looks like the real, authentic thing and even acts like it, as well as reacts. Star Wars? They've got nothing that even comes close to that sort of memory or computational capabilities. And despite the several security breaches in Starfleet, they do seem more protected than the casual Star Wars consol, where any enemy can just sneak aboard the bridge, reset the navicomp and not even apparently requiring a password. At least it's still better than Dalek Security, where you leave your genuis enemy who has escaped in all his tight jams throughout your species entire history in the same room as the unlocked consol that controls every Dalek in existence...despite the fact that all Daleks are extremists to begin with, so no sort of device is even required...

After the encounter, a stormtrooper who had managed to escape aboard a TIE Advanced reports the incident of rape to the proper authorities. They've yet to get back to him.

...And? Granted, I'd be curious how one would calculate a fireball the size of a small moon.

No I can't. And no, you'd be wrong as well.

You are correct, although it would seem that the fireball doesn't act in the normal sense given its duration was a bit longer. Then again, it was also within the well of a black hole, which could mean it was delayed or at least appeared to be.

[quote name='Prophet of Truth' I used the canon name for the glassings, nothing else. I said they glassed the crust. Canon fact because that is what the operation are called No, look again. You claimed 1 exaton for the operation and assumed it was literal. You just said that you didn't bring it up as literal until I brought up TDiC. ...What? So what you've basically just told me that the explosion we see in the game, to which you claimed was from the PoA's reactors makes no sense because it was flying off in the other direction? And why are you going to Oraghan for this? I'm pretty sure he'd shoot you down just as quickly as I would. And what is that? Because what you seem to want me to believe and what actually happened are pretty hard to believe. We see the PoA glowing white before cutting to Chief in his shaking ship. Then a bit alter we see another massive exposion and then we see a chunk flying off. No. Because you claimed that the visuals confirmed your story. Thus far, I cannot confirm that nor are you being clear. A entirely different matter exists in Obsession. Spock confirms beforehand that their bomb will take off half the atmosphere. We see Kirk bring the bomb down, beam up, the Enterprise shake, and the ship leaving a planet with a massive (albiet, inaccurate) crater. What you have here is two sources that you've cherry picked from, given me little information, and we're supplied with little to begin with. For example, you claimed that was the explosion, but there's no concrete evidence. We saw the reactors overload, a bright white flash, Chief escaping, then an explosion behind them, and then a piece of the ring flying off and tearing the rest of it apart. Could it have been from the PoA? Possible, but unlikely given the time delay when we'd already seen her lighting up. It's far more probable that parts of the ring exploded and a chunk of it was thrown into the rest of the ring while other fragments were tossed into the void of space. What we can take from it is at least about 400 megatons worth of energy from its reactors, possibly more, but probably no greater than a gigaton of energy, which coming from a fusion reactor aboard a starship, is pretty damn high. Listen to me Prophet; you need to post the entire scene for things like this. The quote ends when the scene ends. Otherwise, intentionally or not, it looks like you have something to hide. I understand what you're trying to say here, but that's incorrect. The problem is that Hood is responding to something. What is he responding to? The glassing. And it wasn't just a small portion that the Covenant glassed, or else again, Hood would have just been referencing the destroyed area or territories. What happened, or at least likely, is that the Flood landed, the Covenant bombarded them and went overboard, glassing multiple territories. And even if Africa is one large country, that doesn't exactly fix it, because they would have retained their territorial names. It doesn't matter how far in the future you are, people need specific names for places in order to find it. So Egypt is still Egypt, even if it's for the sake of just knowing what you're talking about. So logically, he would have gone with Egypt if they'd just glassed most of Egypt. You can't really get around this and I think you know that. Um, there isn't any refernces to it in Star Wars, Star Trek, and I don't think Stargate either. The problem is, the velocities are just too great. It requires expensive amounts of fuel and it requires absurd capabilities that these ships don't have. After all, the Enterprise D surpassed the speed of light in racing to Earth, does that mean she can withstand that sort of stress on her hull now and we should calculate everything from there? The problem is that this the mass reduction thing is sort of a fanon explination term for why these ships can move like they do, because most people in sci-fi just sort of forget about that part. I believe the ST technical manuel does and I think Saxton tried it for Star Wars, but there's two differnet results. One is ST, where it's mass reduction (non-canon TMs, but often accepted) and then there's the circle jerker himself who basically gave the ISDs engines so powerful that when they fly by planets, they'd kill all life. Obviously, that isn't the case in SW. Nor do I believe so in Halo, which you'd start to have to take into acocunt if these ships have that powerful of engines. There is no structural integrity field strong enough to keep the entire ship from snapping in half. Those fields can't stop double-tripple MT level explosions that last for a brief amount of time. How could the withstand hours of beyond lightspeed pressure?

I don't have time for a full response now, but I'll address a few issues that I have problems with here. The first is that no, you took glassing literal before I ever came in. Check post #11, where you pretty much zipped down your pants with the 1 exaton claim in respons to Tyralak's request for evidence. Furthermore, as for the Pillar of Autumn's fusion reactors, let's look at the rest of the page, shall we? This is completely at odds with what happened in the game: In the book, it mentions no part of the structure being blown off as we saw. Instead, it was the stress of the structure on a newly created weakpoint that caused it to break apart. So if what we saw there was a fireball explosion in the game, it's utterly at odds with the book. Of course, I could easily tell you what happened. The fusion engines created a massive crater, which as the book said, created a weak point. Remember that the ship exploded just as Chief was escaping. We see the ship he's in shaking, presumably from the forces of the explosion. Not much later, we see a larger explosion which blows off a large portion of the ring which in turn hits the another portion and sets off the chain reaction. In other words, there was a secondary explosion that was caused by the weakened, exposed parts of the ring. Why didn't you post this other part of the page Prophet? It changes the entire concept of what happened. For quantifying the Enterprise's antimatter containment pods: The total size is 26.2 km, but I rounded it to 26.3 for simplicity of 29,000 megatons or 29 gigatons. Getting back to the hyperbole incident with the last part of Hood's reference, I apologize for the mistake. Unfortuantely, you haven't saved the argument. Because now we have to ask ourselves, why would Hood say such a thing? If someone nuked Texas, you wouldn't suddenly scream; "He nuked half of America!" but instead say "He nuked Texas!" Or "Half of Texas!" In other wors, why would Hood say Africa instead of say, Egypt or one of the other many territories within Africa? In short, his claim may not be precise, but it would suggest that the Covenant had glassed a significant portion of Africa. Again, I also ask just why you seem to think you can ignore portions of my arguments? You ignored the alternate theory for Plasma torpedoes and you ignored mass lightning technology. It's not like you're the only one who has ships that move that fast (or faster), as is the case in Star Trek. Guess what? Mass lightning has never been canon for the Impulse drive, which is what they use for STL or occasionally FTL speeds. It's also fusion. So why shouldn't I start claiming the same sorts of stress capabilities for Star Trek ships?

Your link isn't working. As for the size, I found the images on the Halo wiki: http://yfrog.com/jm1214861618shadowofintenp He should have used the height of the ship instead of the length I think. The long line going up and down the height of the ship is 700 meters and comes out to 390 pixels. The smaller one next to it is waht you'd need for 100 meters. In addition, I also compare the size of the plasma torpedo to one of the symbols near the forward section of the ship, which I then compare in the other image. At its thickest, it's about 50 meters or so, smaller is in the mid to high twenty meters. Hmm, two people voted negatives? I assume one was you, but who was the other? At least you seem to have posted your ordeal with the post. EDIT: Link may take some time to load up.

Well Prophet, I am, as I write this at work, so I can’t look up everything or quote everything, but that’s not a problem because I’ve wanted to slim these things down, the quote limit has caused this debate to grow beyond what it should be. Allow me to slim it down to one post (hopefully) getting at as many points as I can. If I miss something, please ask me to address it and I will (ie, this isn’t; I don’t accept that argument, so much as it is touching on the issue). First, allow me to be clear on just how I view debates; I do not accept VFX errors or problems as good arguments. I will dismiss them out of hand since this isn’t a documentary (despite what SB and SDN would have you think); it’s a budgeted show/game. So I’m not going to argue back and forth whether something’s a black hole or that the bombardment doesn’t look ‘real enough’. If you don’t like it to the point where you wish to contend this, then we can’t get any farther. I’m not going to budge on this issue. Period. Plasma Torpedoes Size As far as size is concerned, your argument I find rather false. I presume the plasma torpedoes are the blue ones? I’ve done a bit of scaling on one of the pictures and it looks to be around 25 meters to around 50 meters. The length is clearly 100 meters, but that’s now width. Nor is a plasma torpedo something you describe as a fireball. It just doesn’t match the description. Glassing Operations, Gigaton Claims, and Outliers Your argument for literal glassing is silly, and you know it is. It’s pretty bad how much of a hypocrite you are in this regard. You harp on TDiC not conforming properly, but the descriptions for glassing operations in the novels are completely inaccurate. The only reason I haven’t blasted you out of the water for this earlier—unlike how it went for those who tried the same argument on SB is that I don’t wish to make a hypocritical argument; ie, I don’t accept visual mistakes as reasons to dismiss evidence. On that same merit, I will argue against something that goes against basic plot logic. The fact of the matter is, planets that have been stated to be glassed have not been glassed. You wish to avoid this by claiming they were engaging in hyperbole, but if that’s the case, then how can you claim it’s literal when you want it to be? This is another case of you attempting to play both sides. When it suits you, you’ll use it. When it doesn’t, you’ll condemn it. Either you have to play fair or don’t play; it’s as simple as that. In this matter you have remained unbendable, while demanding that I bend over back on those same issues for my side. I don’t understand why you seem to think that I would or I should. You want to claim that you have evidence of lower yields, but the bulk of your sources are clearly absurd that it almost defies reality. Really? Gigawatt weaponry? How could 600 gigawatt weapons do anything to the Enterprise D when the NX-01 had 500 gigawatt phase cannons in the twenty-second century? The absurdity of such an argument is not only laughable, but petty. Or do you honestly believe despite the fact that we’ve seen that Constitution class starships smacking around a more advanced Avenger in the Mirror Universe, that the modern ships are incapable of stopping such an attack. Furthermore, the reaction that the Enterprise D’s shields is like none other that we’ve seen in Stark Trek. Worf had trouble reassembling the shield and despite the fact that it easily brought down the shields, there was only light thermal damage to the hull. Furthermore, this is easily explainable within the context of the episode itself. In the episode, the ship is an illusion produced by a pacifistic entity who wanted to drive the Enterprise D away. So it’s logical that the actually energy was around 600 gigawatts, but the damage was technobabble, probably an anti-shield type method. The character’s reactions, although I fear I don’t remember the wording exactly, seemed to be troubled after the higher burst and the damage to their shields. It’s possible, that their concern was that the increased firepower of the type of weapon caused them concern. Similar in method to that of a phaser; it isn’t DET, but if someone turns it from setting three (heavy stun) to twelve (vaporization), you’re in serious trouble. Another similar absurd argument is if I recall, the one terawatt I recall? Well again, we know that 1000 gigawats is equal to one terawatt. Going back to the prototype NX-01 and the NX-02, we know they’re armed with 500 gigawatt weapons. We see that their ships can fire both phase cannons at once. If one terawatt was more than the Enterprise D can generate, then why is a ship about two hundred years old capable of outperforming it? And really, if we look at it, the NX prototype must generate more than a terawatt, given that the ship can power their hull, their impulse drive, life support, phase cannons, photonic torpedo launchers, sensors, and even their warp drive. In fact, this is also assuming that said phase cannons require the warp reactor to work off, which may be, but I don’t think it is and it seemed as if tying the phasers/phase cannons to the warp reactor was something new in TMP. And yet you seriously think that this is a counter argument? That’s the problem with you; you think that using outliers that are downright laughable in conception should disprove other events; they don’t. You need to use well established, reasonable methods to disprove what you claim to be outliers. Now, what someone who is reasonable would do is attempt to rework the glassing operation to fit both cannons. How do we do that you ask? Well first, we already know that a Bungie employee already said that plasma torpedoes are ‘archaic’ and ‘different’ from what we currently understand. According to Bungie, what official Bungie employees say is canon. In that case, we have this all fixed for us; we don’t need gigaton energy if these weapons don’t form to conventional methods. This allows us to dismiss the silliness of gigatons when we clearly see that megatons will get the job done But how do we make reason of it? Let’s look at the cocktail idea that Oraghan suggested; something that burns and continues to do so, but on a much more advanced and grander scale. These weapons aren’t traditional nukes so much as they are incinerating devices. This is actually a very effective method; incinerary bombs were used in World War II against Britian with a total capability of 2 kilotons worth of TNT, causing one of the first man-made firestorms. In fact, that bit of a fireball from the plasma torpedo might give us insight into this; a plasma torpedo with an incinerating aspect to it would allow the explosion to send the plasma into a much wider area than impacting upon the ground. These plasma torpedoes are so effective that parts of the planet—even large parts, allows glassing without causing massive damage to the rest of the planet. However, the problem is the loss of an atmosphere and boiling the oceans. We could suggest that the plasma torpedoes with enough firepower, could actually cause the planet to mirror a large scale greenhouse effect; ie, it causes the planet to keep heating itself up, vaporizing all the oceans to the point that the atmosphere blows itself off. This would also allow planets such as that in Halo Wars to have been technically glassed, but not to the level at which is suggested for those in the novels. It also at the same time, allows us to solve the issue of the lack of DET results we’d see if this was the case. Best of all, this also allows us to see that these weapons can glass planets, but a society with fusion reactors are still a threat, even if they require higher numbers. In fact, this perfectly explains the trailers where we see large fireballs, but not the effects that should accompany them; ie, the plasma torpedoes are simply spreading their incinerary plasma all over the planet, which in turn allows it to basically burn everything away. Pillar of Autumn Fusion Reactor Yield The Pillar of Autumn you claimed, had a massive what? One teraton? Something like that? Doesn’t matter. The problem here is that you think that this explosion must be the real McCoy, but your evidence is sketchy. First off, remember that this isn’t a planet where the gravity is more or less constant. It’s a ring. Depending on how far the gravity field for this ring extends and how strong it is, the fireball’s size could drastically change. This isn’t even assuming that there might be other high energy generators and such that may have added to the yield, not just the fusion energy. Therefore, it’s best to calculate the energy based off of the crater, which is described as a singular result and since it’s a nuclear explosion, would be a near-instant event. This is about 400 megatons, which would seem about right for the main reactor of a fusion society, though clearly some more effective methods are going on than moderate day. Also take note that just because 400 megatons or even a teraton were seen there, it doesn’t equate to uber yields. The Enterprise from Abrams universe displayed easy double digit gigatons in the presence of a black hole. And yet, you of all people would argue that such a thing being scaled to Star Trek uses would be absurd—especially in TOS era, even with updated technology. And I would agree to that. What you need to take into account is that these ships are probably thought to last some time without refueling or in the case that they can’t. That takes into account the energy the ship will go through and most militaries base their estimations around the worst case scenarios (if they’re smart). In which case, a ship carrying hundreds of megatons or even a teraton of energy doesn’t mean uber yields for that sci-fi. KE for Archer Missiles Your argument that the UNSC uses chemical explosives for missiles whose KE transfer is far grater than their warheads is incredibly stupid. No society would waste the warhead. It would be much better to add a more sophisticated guidance system or one with greater mass which would serve more to increase the capabilities of the warhead rather than a yield that is utterly worthless. In this case, I suggest a method of mass lightning technology, which of which has been a staple explanation for Sci-fi for years. This also allows us to solve the issue with the MAC guns and the like, which would thus use mass lightning to fire objects at the target, with the reduced mass being compensated by the fact that there’s a great deal of it to shoot. Halo “Outliers†I also wish to address this claim of Halo outliers, to which you claim Archer Missiles, 30 megaton mines, and even an 80 megaton bunker being simple outliers. The problem is, they aren’t. It perfectly matches up with this being a near-future Earth—and please, spare me the date, that’s not what I mean. I am referring to the setting. The setting is that of technology that’s based on what is mostly possible. The series is set with fusion reactors, 80 megaton bunkers, and their guns are based around ours—and from what I hear, slightly inferior in some cases (but let’s assume superior here). Combat doctrine is still fairly the same, the only difference being with that of the Spartans who are genetically modified for their purpose. In fact, by your argument, should we consider that bunk? It’s impossible to alter someone’s genetics to the point where they gain superhuman strength and speed. It’s a rather big myth of sci-fi that altering someone’s genes will alter them physically; you’d probably just kill them. That’s something that needs to be done before birth—in the early stages of birth as a matter of fact. I mean, let's look at that argument. A woman thinks she's safe in an 80 megaton proof bunker--yet such firepower by the KE of what you claim for Archer Missiles would make it laughable. Or any nuclear weapon considering you seem to think that the Pillar's reactor is worth a teraton of firepower. You also claim that 30 megatons from a few mines took out an entire fleet of Convenant ships as a outlier--I do still want that quote for the detonations by the way. I want evidence that they were all damaged and the number of mines. And of course, you consider Archer Missiles, which are point blank stated to be high explosives--don't count as evidence of low power because apparently in your beliefs, a military puts a warhead into something that they use as a bullet because...because why? Why not use a nuclear equal? Why not just make more room for fuel for higher speeds or add on heavier parts for greater mass? It doesn't make sense; it's complete and utter bunk. It's no more stupid than claiming that SW fighters and bombers are useless against larger ships when we see them raping them in Clone Wars all the time. Trek Super-Weapons/Yields Next on the list are the Trek Super-Weapons or the higher yields shown in the series. I’ve already discussed why your counter arguments, for the most part fall flat on their faces. The second part, to which we will now discuss, is why you seem to think that other events contradict them. Breen’s Attack on Earth Although I think this is so obvious it shouldn’t need explaining again, I will. The fact of the matter is, your argument is silly just from the get go. It’s pretty obvious that the Breen are fairly advanced, within the same level of technology sphere as the Federation. We also know that as of TNG, that Spock considered what we see as modern day nuclear weapons as primitive (it should be noted that the WWII should be considered as the baseline for primitive here). This easily means that KT nuclear weapons are far below them, in at least terms that they can easily produced. In Tomorrow is Yesterday, while in the atmosphere of Earth and shield less from their encounter with the black hole that threw them into the past, the Enterprise was under a threat of a F104 that could be carrying a nuclear armament. Looking around. I found that the maximum yield of these bombs are around 80-130 kt, depending on what design the fighter was carrying at the time. Therefore, the Breen should comfortably exceed the requirements of producing such weapons and if they had planned upon bombarding Earth in advance, even if you argue 500 GW weapons, they’d be required to have the resources to produce the nukes to really fuck up Earth. And yet we don’t see this. We don’t see any massive firestorms, no massive death tolls or reports or high levels of radiation on Earth. This seems to suggest to me that either the Breen never got a clear shot at Earth, they’re retards and something else hit Earth, or that something prevented the Breen from harming Earth. Given that prison planets and the like have planetary shielding and Kirk’s relative surprise at Memory Alpha not having one, suggests that it’s a common method of protecting a planet from attacks. Clearly Earth, being the very heart of the Federation, should have this sort of protection, in addition to other methods of defense, some of which we already know about such as the Mars Defense Perimeter. We also know that they have Space Dock and it would seem that such a massive station should be armed, considering what Earth had cone with Deep Space Nine; a former mining station. Logically then, what hit Earth may have either been fallout from destroyed ships or satellites or even from weapons that “leaked†through the shields. Obsession/The Immunity Syndrome vs. the NOVA Bomb The episode features what is commonly referred to as the Obsession Bomb. In these two episodes, we have absurdly powerful bombs being easily made on the fly and in fact being taken from the Enterprise’s own engines. This isn’t a too of an unusual procedure as we’re told that as of Enterprise (the series), that the NX-01 uses its antimatter pods to fuel its photonic torpedoes, which logically means that later ships may very well do this. This is actually a fairly good idea, since that means the torpedoes don’t need to constantly sustain power to keep the antimatter from going bang bang. Surely, most reasonable people can say that this is a super-weapon or an outlier. And it is; the Alpha-Beta powers never use these sorts of weapons save for some sort of doom’s day device. But you seem to think these are rarely deployed or hard to deploy; but as I’ve just told you, this is simple nonsense. We have two incidents of the Enterprise deploying these weapons on separate occasions. So either Starfleet demands that each of their hundreds of ships keep these things lying around, or going with the incident from Obsession, that these can be sort of quickly made as crude bombs, but are rarely done so. But then we get to the NOVA bomb, which has been deployed only once, but as you pointed out, was intended to be a fleet buster. In this case, we have two weapons from two different franchises. In both cases, the weapons are far more powerful than what either side typically deploys. But yet, despite the fact that both weapons are suggested to being easily mass produced—or at least intended to be in the NOVA’s case, you seem to think that it’s alright to label the Obsession bomb as a “lost technologyâ€â€”yet say that the NOVA is easily going to be fielded. Does that strike you as even a tiny bit hypocritical—and no, don’t feed me that excuse of “lost technologyâ€; that’s an excuse subpar debaters toss out to avoid actually addressing the issues. Both technologies are identical in their production and absurdly high yields, as well as their rarity upon the field. The Die is Cast, Apocalypse Rising, A Taste of Armageddon, Apocalypse Rising, Tribbles and Tribbulations & Broken Link Next we should address the issue of these five episodes. You claim that TDiC and BL are outliers or are hyperbole. The problem with this argument is, that once again that you ignore that these just aren’t one off incidents that had no effects upon the DS9 story; they in fact had very far reaching results. The attempt of orbital bombardment led to the loss of the Tal Shiar, which in turn crippled the Romulan aggression and it caused the downfall of the Cardassian Union as it was before the war. This led to the invasion by the Klingons, which in turn led to conflicts with the Federation, briefly sending the two powers into intense hostilities and the exile of Worf for the second time. This also allowed the Maquis to gain an upper hand in the DMZ, furthering their own arch. This also led to Dukat taking control of the Cardassian Union by basically handing themselves over to the Dominion. This led to the expulsion of the Klingons from Federation territory, the eventual destruction of the Maquis, which affected both Sisko, his former chief of security, and the Maquis members aboard Voyager. This also links to another story later in DS9 in which involves the former Cardassian commander who led the fleet against the Founder’s homeworld. In other words, the entire idea that this is something we should dismiss causes massive collapses on all fronts. However, we don’t need to assume that the fleet used typical yields with their torpedoes; we know that their yields are adjustable and with a planned attack, the fleet could have taken extra high yield torpedoes for the mission. They could certainly fit a great deal of torpedoes on those warbirds. Now turning an eye to the other four episodes, we ask ourselves, how do we quantify this? Well, the first thing to do is look at the TOS eras (T&T and AToA). In the episode of the Enterprise 1701 in AToA, we’re told that the Enterprise alone was going to attack the population centers. Now, this planet is actually having an interplanetary war with another planet in their system, based on computers. They fight a game based on figures and models in order to preserve their culture; ie, when a nuke hits, they send the “killed†people to booths where they’re incinerated. Therefore, a simple tactic of keeping their side at the advantage would mean that both planets would seek to widen the area of their population centers, so that their side isn’t hurt by the density. The greater the density, the more people killed in a nuclear strike. Now, the Enterprise was stated to be able to take out the entire society with its armament. We know that as of Undiscovered Country, that the upgraded Enterprise-A carried 100 photon torpedoes. This puts a limit on how many torpedoes the Enterprise could have carried. We also don’t know the level of damage phasers would cause, but chances are they would have been used in the bombardment, similar in degree to what we saw in TDiC at least. With typical weapons, the Enterprise would have needed megaton level weapons to take out most of the population centers of the planet, probably in the aid of phasers. Unfortunately, we don’t know the extent of the damage, but chances are we’re looking at orbital bombardment required to assured death tolls as opposed to planetary destruction. Switching over to say, the Klingon Armada from T&T and thanks to STXI, we can give the Klingon Armada being at around 50 starships. If one starship, such as the Enterprise, is capable of taking out the population centers of an advanced culture that would logically be spread all over the planet, it would seem that the armada would be able to deal serious damage. But how much? Obviously, it can’t be within the capabilities of the fleet in TDiC, which burned off the crust and the mantle. Nor would it seem that the Klingons would be that excessive. But then again, we’re told that the Klingons hated Tribbles and an Armada is clearly excessive to begin with given that one Constitution class could have done the same job. Clearly, we’re probably getting that Worf was referring to the damage to the surface, as this would seem plausible to what the Klingons would want to assure total eradication, as opposed to just nuclear bombardment. It would also conform to the idea that 24th century ships being capable of greatly outperforming their older counterparts. To be fair, let’s consider that the Narada is a heavily armed mining ship, say military grade. Assuming the destruction of the Narada wasn’t a complete and utter assraping session, we would think that the Narada suffered some damage (maybe they repaired it?), but clearly not extensively. If we equate the Narada to around the same level as the Defiant (and I’m just playing around with numbers), we might suggest that their level of destruction is the same. In this case, we should look at the Defiant. We’re told it has enough power to turn the planet into a cinder. Clearly a literal cinder is right out, but we want something that still fits it, which is actually easy to reach; cinder would probably be a statement about the condition of the planet’s surface. If this is the case then the surface would be smoking, burning, ect. The question is, would this also include the fact that the planet is mostly covered in liquid—or was Garak applying a typical planet? Assuming the later, which is far more probable, we would still have a great deal of liquid. Is this burning as well? Not likely, but it’s possible. I would propose that he’s speaking that most of the planet’s land mass (assuming equal to about Earth’s here) would be covered in firestorms. The surface would be burning, with the smoke and significant heat causing large scale smoking effects. With low level gigaton-like weaponry that Damar suggests in Apocalypse Rising, this is easily supportable and matches well within the range of the firepower that a ship would be expected to carry. Much of this is based upon speculation; but reasonable speculation. Although the comics potray the Narada as some sort of supership, it’s never stated in the movie. So in reality the Defiant could be much more powerful, but if we assume that the sheer volume that the Narada puts out allows it to overcome the fact that the Defiant would cumberstomp it, then we don’t have a problem. Think of it as a missile with multiple warheads that break away and cover a wider area compared to the Tsar Bomb; lower yield, but greater amount of volume. Against ships with inferior technology, it’s a plausible conclusion. In that same vein, it also means that ~50 Klingons TOS ships = Defiant, which would mean that when Worf said that the planet was “obliteratedâ€, he’s referring to the surface and we’re looking at probably significant firestorms, but not outruling significant damage to the surface, but clearly limited to the crust given the level of damage that we saw later ST ships performing when prepared. The Pegasus vs. Broken Link & Apocalypse Rising Your argument pertaining to The Pegasus and the other two episodes in an attempt to dismiss gigaton claims is also on shaky ground. First, I believe you’re attempting to use the argument based on the calculations based off Wong’s calculator. Your claim seems to be that the astseroid was mostly hollow; but the problem is that Riker didn’t know how hollow it was. They didn’t know they’d be going 2-3 km deep into the ship. They just knew that it was a few hundred meters at least. We also, don’t know how deep the others were and I do think that the Pegasus fell down into one of the deeper ones. Three major problems with your claims then (sorta repeating myself, but I want to be clear). First, you seem to assume that because the asteroid is hollow, it would be easier to destroy, of which you have no evidence. Second, you seem to b under the impression that Riker knew how hollow it was—which isn’t true. They didn’t know how deep or how wide the holes were. Therefore, Riker would have presumed that the worst case scenario would have been best to assume for the required presumption. In addition, a nearby Romulan Warbird was already heading towards them. In that case, they’d need torpedo spam to ensure that the asteroid was destroyed quickly, reducing the time they needed to analyze the most effective method of destruction. They’d also want to put out extra torpedoes incase portions broke away. The third issue is that I believe that you’re basing your argument off of the calculations using Wong’s asteroid destruction calculator. The problem is however, that his calculator assumes that the torpedo would be buried in the center when in reality they’d be impacting upon the surface and the Enterprise D would be pretty much firing in rapid succession without targeting the right areas. There’s also another case turning to Deja Q, where we learn that the Enterprise D is capable of destroying a similar size moon over a planet. In this case, Data confirms that the moon could be destroyed, but the moon isn’t hollow like you claim the Pegasus Asteroid to be. And if such a thing is not hollow, to which you seem is a major indication that the asteroid should have easily been destroyed, then how would the Enterprise D be expected to blast apart that moon, where all the blasts would have been on the surface? Obviously, they couldn’t. This suggests that given his rushed statement and his lack of knowledge of the asteroid, would mean he was basing it off its size and not its configuration. Apocalypse Rising You also claim that Apocalypse Rising is discounted by The Pegasus, but as I’ve already shown you, your conclusions are horribly flawed. There’s no reason that Damar would have been kidding as he was serious. As to being hyperbole, there is a bit of vagueness to his claim, but that isn’t hyperbole; he’s guessing as to the amount of damage a few torpedoes would do. He says several, similar to how if I had 312 toys, I might just round it to 300 when someone asks or how someone might round down from 23.455 megatons and just say 23 megatons. That’s Not a Black Hole! As I said above, I really take offense to this sort of stupid absurdity. Of course something may not act 100% like it’s supposed to in science fiction. People are drastically altered via DNA bullshit bullshit, glassing isn’t nearly what it’s supposed to look like, nor is orbital bombardment where entire portions of the crust are being removed. But just as I don’t want to ravage a novel because it’s horribly, horribly inaccurate on something when the intention is clear, I’m not going to accept people doing the same to Sci-fi because a special effects guy doesn’t know how to do something right. That’s bullshit and it’s a fucking insult to anyone who has to spend hours working hard to get the effects as close as they possibly can. Now, you may point out that this black hole is artificial, so thus it may not be as strong; fair enough. But at that same time, we’ve seen this black hole swallowing Vulcan with ease. And no—Spock didn’t watch it from a moon. If half the retards on SB.com knew their Trek, they’d know that Vulcan doesn’t have any moons. But as I've pointed out before, you have a great deal more to lose if you want to play on things like documentary style debating. Conclusions In conclusion, your argument for absurd power yields is hypocritical and poorly constructed hidden behind attempts at claiming that constant lower showings are outliers, ignoring canon information and basic logic. Your claims of superweapons for your side is silly and hypocritical given that you denounce properties that are similar to the ones that you use to support an equivalent on my side.

In whose wet dream?

I understand, and it must be brought up. It is rather questionable as to what happened given that a small armada apparently attacked earth and the damage appears to be rather small. But this is (for you to see Truth) an outlier simply by basic logic; the damage should be greater. Far, far greater. Even nuclear weapons that Spock considered primitive in his time would have put in tens of thousands of death tolls. The entire example must be an outlier. Why? It doesn't make any sense, no matter which way we look at it. How do we explain it? Well, that's where planetary shields come in. They're canon, we know Earth has a defense system, and logically it should be one of the best. It fits everything and fixes the problem. This is also an outlier, but of a different sort. Logically, what we saw there is impossible. Star Trek has never displayed the sort of power where they could do this. If they had, a great deal of issues such as asteroids--and even moons would not be a problem to the Enterprise D. To make it obvious;it takes numerous Covenant ships 12 hours on average to "glass" a planet's crust. It would take about 40 Federation ships to remove the crust entirely with 1/12th of that time. So it's an outlier because it's just too absurdly high to believe. How do we fix it? We suggest they use alternative means rather than the standard warheads. We don't immediately try and find ways around say, ignoring all other examples and dismissing them out of hand with flimsy excuses.

Where's your measurments? Based on exactly jack shit, right? No. We can't even accept the possiblity that the entire explosion is 100% from the ship's own reactors because there are other energy sources on Halo, which might have potentially added to the blast. Therefore, the only logical conclusion would be to base it off the initial crater, not the massive fireball we see later from the initial explosion. Learn to read? Learn to think you mindless fanboy. You can't claim a term is literal sometimes and hyperbole the next. It is a special pleadings fallacy. No, you're proving you're a stupid shit. The only difference between you and Jason is that you can articulate better. But in reality, you're much stupider and much more stubborn. At least Jason has the excuse of clearly being new to this. But you? You've been at SB, you know better than to try and pull this cherry picking shit. Throughout this thread you've made numerous special pleading fallacies, demanding that your high end stuff be taken as 100% literal based off of DET nuclear effects, despite the fact that Bungie has already said that their plasma torpedoes are not conventional. You've also gone out of your way to ignore all forms of logic and reason. The UNSC's ships can be taken down by high explosives and they regularly field 30-80 mt type warheads/mines, the former of which can take out multiple Covenant cruisers. In addition, despite it being proven (even admitted by you) that 'glassing' does not have to be a literal term and we've seen in higher canon that it's clearly not, you've gone out of your way to classify the higher end canon as non-literal and tried to keep in the literal glassings found only in the novels and of which are horribly inaccurate to what they describe as "glassing". Do you try and reason the problems? No. You just keep repeating dribble like your sci-fi is the only one with high end calculations because all the other ones are outliers. Newsflash; it isn't. And your examples are utter and complete bunk that you base on 100% literal interpretations of lesser canon material. You're no better than the Warsie desperately clutching onto their sad ICS books. So let me get this straight. Despite the captain of the Phoenix apparently knowing that these ships toss out Tera-HALO IS FUCKING AWWWWWWWWWWWWESOME!-tons, he decided to attack the ship with weapons that clearly do sub-kt damage because...? Oh right, because now we're going to get into that fanboy part where you come up with an excuse that basically means the captain's a fucking moron since firing sub-kt weapons at a ship that eats up teragons of energy is about as useful as blowing on the moon. Really? So according to you, the term glassing isn't literal, save for when you want them to be. Yep, I'm sure everyone can see how reasonable and logical that is. Oh yeah, I can't imagine why. You: Despite having fusion reactors and using high explosives, it's pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that the UNSC is capable of fighting an enemy capable of tossing out gigatons of energy that I believe is correct because a lower canon book says so. I just creamed myself. Seriously, you're claiming teratons of energy for a near future setting. Do you realize how much of a fucking tool you sound like? No, it's you playing both sides like a little slut. Logically, as I've presented, if glassing were literal, then we'd see it in Halo 3 and Halo Wars, but it isn't. So either it was retconned or it was a simple literal term. You however, want to say that the games only use it as hyperbole (funny enough) when we can actually quantify it, but when it's quantified in a book, you want it to be literal. You can't have your cake and eat it. It's pretty obvious what fucking happened. Glassing was a term used and then the authors decided that it was literal and went ahead with it, but clearly they don't understand the requirements since we also see low megaton level weapons taking out entire fleets in those same novels, as well as 80 megaton bunkers and high explosives. And really, we've already been told that their plasma torpedoes aren't conventinal, which means we don't have to go through all the DET requirments which in turn means they don't need an exaton of energy to glass the planet even by literal terms. As Oraghan has suggested, this can be simply solved by thinking of the plasma warhead as a sort of cocktail. But you don't want this. You want to sit there like a little fanboy jerking off. Lol. And? I've made no secret that I'm throwing out those examples due to the evidence of higher canon. Has nothing to do with defending my argument, as I do it in the same breath. But I guess you want to ignroe that part, right? And you keep evading the issue. I never, at any point, indicated that this had anything to do with the artifact. Because it doesn't. Guess what? When you shoot a man and kill him, you still shot him. When you shoot and wound a man, you still shot him. When you cut a man's neck open and kill him, you still cut him. When you cut a man's finger, you still cut him. Starting to understand the logic now? All the characters refer to glassing as more of an operation of bombardment rather than the literal term of use. It has fuck all to do with the artifact. They could have stoped it for the sake of a fucking bunny rabbit and it wouldn't change the fact that their glassing operation cannot be literal in any sense of the word. And I'm snipping the rest of this crap. And no, the one image (the second one) that did work doesn't prove anything for you. It just looks like the largest, cleanest forest fire I've ever seen. No massive smoke clouds, nothing.

The NOVA was designed as a fleet buster and clearly had rather strange properties. Like creating a shockwave in space strong enough to devistate a moon. Nor is it an honest method, using a superweapon that was used only once--when Obsession shows a bomb the size of a bowling ball tearing off planet. Of course, knowing your fanatical logical display, you'll no doubt claim that the Obsession bomb was used only once and shouldn't count while mantaining that the NOVA should still be considered fine while also using it as a basis for fleet power. No, because there clearly wasn't any sort of significant form of glassing on Africa, otherwise there'd be significant damage to the planet. In fact, Hood should be saying something closer to 'raze' or 'nuked' rather than glassed. The entire logic of it just breaks down. Bungie previews are nortorious for their inaccuracy, as such with Halo 2, where they showed Earth being bombarded. And when will you drop the strawman? The issue isn't that there's a forerunner artifact. It's that each operation has been refered to as a glassed. You really are pathetic. Allow me to key you in on something here; there are multiple, multiple high end things for Star Trek. But they've been ignored in debates for the most part because they're just silly. Therefore, we try and find an alternative to explain it. High end? TOS: Obsession--Half an ounce. Given how much antimatter they have in their ships, they'd literally have enough firepower to level entire planets. TOS: A Taste of Armageddon--The Enterprise is stated to be able to devistate the surface of a planet. TOS: Wrath of Khan--The Genesis device; capable of destroying all life on a planet and reforming it into whatever the Federation wants. TNG: The Survivors--the one that you ironically try and use as a low end is actually a higher end example. One enemy ship bombarded the fuck out of the planet and despite seeing this, the Enterprise D was more than willing to fight the illusionary ship. TNG: The Trap--Data notes that the amount of damage done to a destroyed planet (now an asteroid field) was amazing given the primitive weapons of the two races. TNG: The Chase--A Klingon Cruiser used a plasma reaction weapon to destroy the biosphere of a planet. TNG: A Federation scientist develops a trilithium warhead capable of forcing a star to go supernova. TNG: Masks--The Enterprise is able to heat a comet up to 4,000-5,000 kelvin with their phasers at 10% power. Given the size of the comet, its yield could range from 16-84 gigatons (Starfleet Jedi) DS9: The Die is Cast--40 Romulans and Cardassian ships are claimed to be able to destroy the crust of a planet in an hour and the mantle in 5. DS9: Broken Link--The Defiant is stated to have the firepower to turn the surface of a planet into a cinder. DS9: Apocalypse Rising--Low end quote from Damar puts photon torpedoes at one gigaton, with higher end being multiple gigatons. DS9: For the Uniform: Sisko uses two quantum torpedoes with their plasma warheads removed and replaced with toxins to poison a planet for human life for 50 years after the Maquis poisoned two Cardassian planets. DS9: Inferno's Light--Founder impersonating Bashir steals a runabout loaded with protomatter and trilithium, intent upon causing the star to go supernova. DS9: According to Worf, a Klingon armada obliterated the Tribble homeworld. According to ST XI, a Klingon armada consists of around 47 starships. DS9: A Time to Stand--a 90 isoton bomb when detonated, will destroy everything within 800 km. VOY: Voyager survives a close encounter with a black hole, showing no clear damage despite having fallen past the event horizon. VOY: The Q and the Grey--While stuck in a cluster of stars, the Q Civil War causes several of them to go supernova, catching Voyager once or twice with one of the shockwaves. VOY: The Omega Directive-Harry indicates that a gravametric torpedoe is capable of destroying (devistating) a small planet. ST XI: The Narada survives a close encounter with a black hole, as does the Jellyfish, and the Enterprise. In addition, said black hole devours Vulcan. The Narada itself, despite being a mining ship, was able to destroy a Klingon Armada. The Enterprise later blasts itself out of a black hole, when FTL speeds were failing to escape by detonating her antimatter pods. And you want to masturbate to what, two confirmed 100% glassings of a planet and the NOVA? Compared to what Trek has shown, the NOVA is nothing more than a bad joke. So it's hyperbole. Concession accepted. Was never the point of my argument. Games>>>Books. The Games show that glassing is not literal. We also have confirmation by a Bungie employee that Plasma Torpedoes are not normal weapons, suggesting there's something other than a DET to them. So even if they did glass planets, your conclusions are based upon flawed presumptions. I know that. That's still about 23-29 kt. Your plasma torpedoes had a fireball radius of 100 meters, which at about its lowest point, is 23 kt and is 29 kt at best. You'd have gotten this if you weren't as dumb as a brick. Because Archer Missiles are anti-ship weapons you dumb fuck. That means they're going to have to catch a ship moving at similar speeds. That means that only the excess speed at which the ship is traveling will be facotred into it. And more than likely, the Archer Missiles are designed for proximity blasts. This is also assuming that they don't have some sort of mass reducing technology so they can actually move that fast. Otherwise, if the Archer missiles's yield was so stupidly low compared to the intended KE (which it wouold be), then the UNSC would have simply put a guidance system on it and save themselves the extra few bucks. But then again, I guess being the dumbass that you clearly are, you wouldn't have guessed that. The fact that it clearly isn't intended to be a MT level weapon. If they wanted to use it for the KE, then there wouldn't be a warhead in there in the first place. So chances are, these missiles use mass lightning technology, which fixes not only the curious amount of fuel use (ie, to move a missile at that speed with that low of a yield is just silly--the fuel would be more of a weapon than the warhead!) and the issue of the KE. Wait, you mean the actual torpedoes are 100 meters in size? No, sorry. First of all: For one, it says fireball. A plasma torpedo isn't a fireball by any stretch of the imagination. This also makes one wonder why a plasma torpedo is a hundred fucking meters long. I mean seriously? That thing would be larger than a Boeing 747, which clocks in at 70 meters. Trying to learn how to fucking read. Plasma =/ fireball. Yes, despite the fact that mt level weapons can still take out their ships.

Believe it or not, but that doesn't require glassing of entire worlds. Seriously, why don't they just blow apart worlds while they're at it? It's no more or less stupid than what you're proclaiming. Alright, how far away was this man? Because unless he's in an orbiting ship, you're still up shit creek. Oh I see, so when you want it to be, it's hyperbole, but when you don't want it to be, it isn't. Kinda funny how that works, isn't it? So the reason that Earth wasn't suffering massive effects from having half of Africa literally turned to glass via DET is explained how? The magic bunny Hood pulled out his ass? I give a shit why? He said half a continent was glassed. I don't care if they used a squirt gun or a plasma torpedo. He said it was glassed. If that's true, where's the mother fucking side effects from having that much energy poured into our planet? So they used weapons that would be completely ineffective against each other because...they're idiots?

So...it's fusion.