Jump to content
News Ticker
  • IPB version 4.2 installed!

Recommended Posts

I think the phasers more limited rate of fire would be a major drawback when things get hot:

 

The ability to detect life-forms would be priceless though but overall, I think they would still be more easily over-ran if they got into the same situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personal shield generators have been mentioned iirc as being deployed with Starfleet personnel during the coupe attempt though we don't really see them later on in ground actions in the Dominion War so perhaps they are uncommon. They would come in handy for repelling acid spray, not that phasers generally kill things in a particularly messy way.

 

Tricorders and the ability of the orbiting ship to detect life forms rather than relying on hand held motion detectors might be a major advantage. Though I recall there being an issue of interference around the reactor or possibly the alien resin they use to coat their hive disrupting communications? Generally if something can disrupt communications, it can often disrupt sensor resolution as well so the intel from the orbiting ship might be more limited. The detail could be anywhere from nada to hey, there's something really weird down there to unidentified carnivorous life forms converging on your position! Of course where there is interference with communications, interference with transporters also comes into play. Things could get messy if the landing party has to withdraw under attack to a designated beam out location.

 

We don't see much use of wide beam phaser modes in practice, even in situations where it might be handy to stun a large group, so I wonder if that might limit their ability to use wide beam phaser modes to compensate for the low rate of fire for phasers. Pulse phaser rifles have an okay rate of fire if you're a good marksman. If things get scary and confusing, the one shot per pull of the trigger nature of them would be problematic. In tight quarters like these, the Worfzooka or photon grenades would likely be more trouble than they're worth.

 

Depending on how green, green is, if Starfleet spots the likely issues with transporters right away the commander might see fit to issue pattern enhancers before they go in. The Son'a were able to beam people out pretty fast with those drone fired transporter tags, so having that extra bit of signal or a few seconds faster beam up might be the difference between life and death.

 

One advantage for Starfleet is that their standard communicators don't need a ground based relay to communicate with their ship, their communicators do surface to orbit by default. So the subplot of having to split up to get to the communication satellite to contact the ship isn't necessary assuming the alien resin doesn't have any properties that play havoc with sensors or communicators. (Its been a while since I saw the movie, so I don't remember if this was an issue or not.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Worfzooka, I like that.

Personally, I don't see the refire rate as a problem. Presumably, they would try to stun the creatures first, and while usually effective, they aren't always. I have several video clips where they fail to stun or even kill determined individuals or exotic life forms. Uta, the prisoner dude, the Skin of Evil creature, the Horta, etc. Given the exotic nature of the Xenos, they may be more like the Horta, which IIRC, used secreted concentrated acid to burrow through rock. They must have a carbon component, as they mate with, and take on some characteristics of, carbon based life. But they cannot be very similar to us, due to the acid blood.

Also note they withstood several shots before finally going down, especially from pistols. The pulse rifles were very advanced, and also needed several shots. Given Gorman's description, they are probably rail guns ("caseless" and that clip held 95 rounds) and fired explosive rounds.

Let's see if I can dig up the clip...Here it is: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20522425/aliens10.mp4

Armor-piercing, caseless, explosive tipped. As an occasional hunter I can tell you, that is as advanced as firearms get other than the force lance in Andromeda, which comes from an intergalactic civilization. The pulse rifles are awesome. They could, in my estimation, mow down stormtroopers, Gorn, Cylons, Wraith, Terminators, you name it on the infantry level. Each round is both armor-piercing AND explosive! And that doesn't count the grenade launcher.

Given the Xenos took several rounds each, or an entire clip from a pistol, the shotgun was only effective when he shoved it in their mouths, and the track record of phaser stun setting, I doubt the effectiveness of even the kill setting or any wide beam setting. I think they would have to crank it. But I don't doubt the effectiveness of the max setting.

I'd guess they would first try to stun them and fail, try to kill them and fail, and finally end up cranking it to disintegrate them. This would negate the acid blood nicely, but they would lose some people, just like the Colonial Marines did.

But the refire rate probably wouldn't be a problem, one max power shot equals one kill. The pulse rifles needed several shots for a kill.

 

We know the Xenos didn't show up on infrared, so they don't give off any heat relative to the environment (again, exotic life form). But they did show up on the motion sensors, although the sensors were confused. Tricorders are far superior to those, so I have no doubt they could track the movements at the very least.

 

Agreed they would need either pattern enhancers or to move a few hallways to beam out. But transporters are the fastest way to extract a small group of people from a dangerous situation that I can think of. Any group would need to get to their transport, beam out point, stargate, or whatever. Transporters are the only technology that MAY be able to extract them directly from the nest. We're assuming they can't, based on the track record of transporters. But they are the best around when dealing with a small group of people.

If we were dealing with thousands, landing a ship would be better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A fully crewed Miranda-class starship in orbit is a lot of support compared to what the Colonial Marines had: the Sulaco was deserted when the platoon dropped to the surface. Having that much to fall back on would change the scenario dramatically.

 

A Starfleet away team won't have an armored vehicle, so if the reactor interferes with transporter function (which seems very likely), the Starfleet troops will have to go in on foot, and there won't be any cavalry to come to their rescue -- just more foot troops, at best. If things go belly-up in the alien nest, the troops down there will have to get out on their own.

 

Tricorders would probably perform at least as well as the Marine motion detectors. Given their tendency to overlook unknown phenomena, I wouldn't count on tricorders to detect dormant aliens, but they should pick up aliens that have awakened to attack.

 

Phasers should not pose a risk of damaging the reactor cooling system; they can easily be adjusted to where they won't penetrate metal. Of course, if a "reactor safe" setting is insufficient to deter a xenomorph, Starfleet troops could be in just as much trouble as the disarmed Marines.

 

One big advantage for Starfleet is the security of their extraction. The Starfleet vessel, whatever it is, will never need to land on the planet to deploy the away team, so there will never be an opportunity for an alien to get on board to attack the pilot and strand the Starfleet force. Once the fate of the colonists is known, the Starfleet team will be able to withdraw to their ship and quarantine the planet (I doubt that "nuke the whole site from orbit"would be their response to the situation).

 

So a Starfleet force might lose more people in the alien nest, but anyone who escaped it could never become stranded on the planet. Anyone who wasn't directly involved in the attempt to get the colonists out from under the reactor would probably be transported quickly to safety (if they weren't on the starship already). Total losses for Starfleet would probably be much less: they might lose the whole team sent into the reactor, but that would be the max.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starfleet does have those jeep things from Nemesis. Its not armored, is not shielded and weapon placement kinda sucks but it is at least a way to get from point A to point B faster than just hoofing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Starfleet does have those jeep things from Nemesis. Its not armored, is not shielded and weapon placement kinda sucks but it is at least a way to get from point A to point B faster than just hoofing it.

 

And it can carry three, maybe four people? Not suitable for the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed, the dune buggy would not be much help. It is fast over open terrain, but offers minimal protection, and wouldn't be too great in a hallway.

 

Anyway, I should probably explain why I suggested we consider a Miranda. There needs to be about a dozen people, which is a bit much for a runabout. They'd probably select a larger ship, which probably means a full starship. Mirandas are still in use in the TNG era, and they are the smallest I can think of other than the Grissom-type science vessels, which would probably not be selected for a rescue mission. Defiant is similar size, but there are only one or two of that class, and therefore very rare. So that lead me to consider the Miranda.

And while Sulacco was empty, it was a large ship, automated, had an extra drop ship, and nukes available for bombardment.

True, the Miranda would offer backup people, it doesn't allow the most modern technology like a Galaxy class or something, and I think a runabout is too small for this crowd of a dozen, attempting a rescue mission (even more people).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the Sulaco had a lot more cryo-sleep units on board somewhere, it was in no position to carry the colonists away with it, either. My original suggestion was meant to put the ground team in the same "no backup people" position that the Marines were in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personal shield generators have been mentioned iirc as being deployed with Starfleet personnel during the coupe attempt though we don't really see them later on in ground actions in the Dominion War so perhaps they are uncommon. They would come in handy for repelling acid spray, not that phasers generally kill things in a particularly messy way.

 

Given that troops deployed in combat zones (like in "The Siege of AR-558") aren't equipped with personal shields, they must not be very effective. I'd write them off.

 

Tricorders and the ability of the orbiting ship to detect life forms rather than relying on hand held motion detectors might be a major advantage.

 

For combat purposes, I doubt the tricorder would be much better. It would let you know that there are aliens about, and their distance and direction, but it's not going to help you aim at one.

 

Though I recall there being an issue of interference around the reactor or possibly the alien resin they use to coat their hive disrupting communications? Generally if something can disrupt communications, it can often disrupt sensor resolution as well so the intel from the orbiting ship might be more limited.

 

It probably would. They would presumably be able to detect the colonists' implanted transponders, but I wouldn't expect any more from an orbital scan.

 

Of course where there is interference with communications, interference with transporters also comes into play. Things could get messy if the landing party has to withdraw under attack to a designated beam out location.

 

That's highly likely, and they won't have an armored vehicle to save their asses.

 

We don't see much use of wide beam phaser modes in practice, even in situations where it might be handy to stun a large group, so I wonder if that might limit their ability to use wide beam phaser modes to compensate for the low rate of fire for phasers.

 

It's pretty evident that wide-beam settings have very little value in a combat situation.

 

Pulse phaser rifles have an okay rate of fire if you're a good marksman. If things get scary and confusing, the one shot per pull of the trigger nature of them would be problematic.

 

I would not be at all surprised if there were a setting to allow a sustained beam. The pulses presumably encourage good fire discipline and conserve energy, but I wouldn't assume they're incapable of firing a beam.

 

In tight quarters like these, the Worfzooka or photon grenades would likely be more trouble than they're worth.

 

In the TNG timeframe, we've never seen a Starfleet photon grenade, and we haven't seen a hand-thrown Starfleet grenade of any sort for centuries.

 

Depending on how green, green is, if Starfleet spots the likely issues with transporters right away the commander might see fit to issue pattern enhancers before they go in.

 

That wouldn't be too surprising, but they are kind of bulky to carry, and it takes a while to get them set up. I don't think it would be practical to set up pattern enhancers for a beam out while being attacked by xenomorph aliens in close quarters. That's the kind of bad order that a green Starfleet officer with a poor understanding of the situation might make. Setting up the pattern enhancers just outside the nest might be helpful, but I would expect him to order the away team to carry them right into the nest, where they could be used to help extract the colonists. During the alien attack, the pattern enhancers would just be in the way.

 

The Son'a were able to beam people out pretty fast with those drone fired transporter tags, so having that extra bit of signal or a few seconds faster beam up might be the difference between life and death.

 

Unfortunately, Starfleet doesn't use such things. Transporter armbands might help, but I'm not sure if they have a pattern enhancement function, and they don't seem to be used routinely.

 

One advantage for Starfleet is that their standard communicators don't need a ground based relay to communicate with their ship, their communicators do surface to orbit by default. So the subplot of having to split up to get to the communication satellite to contact the ship isn't necessary assuming the alien resin doesn't have any properties that play havoc with sensors or communicators. (Its been a while since I saw the movie, so I don't remember if this was an issue or not.)

 

This is very true. Barring interference, the away team should have no trouble contacting their orbiting starship. In Aliens, the Marines needed access to the colony's transmission dish to contact the Sulaco.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we mentioned it yet, but have we compared travel speeds? A Federation starship might get to Hadley's Hope much sooner after the communcation loss than the Sulaco did, which may mean there are some colonists still to save when the Starfleet team arrives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*sigh*  I was hoping that linking directly to the site rather than trying to embed an image would work.

 

Try this, about halfway down, from Voyager.

 

That's better. Pretty much confirms what I was saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, the Federation ship may arrive sooner.

Although we must assume that Sulacco travels FTL as well. After all, they reached another planet in presumably weeks. They expected help in 17 days. That would mean either someone else is in the system, or they are traveling FTL.

Also, Ripley told her daughter she would be home by her birthday. But they were traveling between star systems. That indicates FTL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, the Federation ship may arrive sooner.

Although we must assume that Sulacco travels FTL as well. After all, they reached another planet in presumably weeks. They expected help in 17 days. That would mean either someone else is in the system, or they are traveling FTL.

Also, Ripley told her daughter she would be home by her birthday. But they were traveling between star systems. That indicates FTL.

 

Oh, yeah. No real doubt that it's FTL, but that doesn't mean that a Fed ship couldn't be faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And while Sulacco was empty, it was a large ship, automated, had an extra drop ship, and nukes available for bombardment.

 

A Runabout should be able to comfortably carry twelve people or more. The one in TNG "Timescape" looked pretty spacious on the inside. Beyond it's ability to carry the platoon and their dropships, the size of the Sulaco was pretty irrelevant: the Starfleet team won't need a dropship, and they don't have armored vehicles.

 

A Runabout will be able to execute some remote commands. It will certainly be able to beam up personnel if they wear transporter armbands. Besides, the original Marine dropship had a pilot and co-pilot who didn't deploy on the ground, so a Runabout would presumably have have two people on board who don't beam down with the troops.

 

A Runabout will have phasers and small photon torpedoes sufficient for orbital bombardment of unshielded surface targets.

 

What it won't have is a hundred or more extra crew members to back up the troops if things go FUBAR on the surface. Even a Miranda-class starship would have a significant number of extra personnel.

 

In my opinion, a Runabout is tactically equivalent to the Sulaco for purposes of the substitution, which is why I originally suggested one.

 

And given the perpetual shortage of starships in a good position to respond when a sudden emergency happens in Star Trek, I'd say that a Runabout is far more likely to be available than a crewed starship of any size.

 

All that said, the effect on the scenario probably isn't large, as the main area of concern in this scenario is what happens under the atmosphere processor when the troops go looking for the colonists. Anyone who makes it out of there will be able to beam up to safety, eliminating the need to fortify a position against the xenos while waiting for rescue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what role would a "Burke" play in the Starfleet scenario.

 

In Aliens, Burke had precipitated the whole situation by sending out colonists to investigate the alien derelict without warning them of the risks. We would have to posit a similar Federation character (maybe a Section 31 guy) who wanted to secretly obtain some xenomorph specimens for some nefarious purpose.

 

The "Burke" would presumably still try to find a way to get a live specimen onto the starship for later study, even risking or sacrificing the lives of the team members to do so. I'm not quite sure how he would go about that within the confines of the Starfleet scenario, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The transporter SHOULD nullify most problems, unless there was something interfering with them &/or Burke screwed with them as part of his mindle$$ly $tupid plan to exploit the xenos as & for bioweapons. :huh:

Plus Data &/or The Doctor, especially The Doctor, could more safely walk into & through the xeno infested areas of HH.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Voyager's doctor used 29th century technology which is not available to other holograms, and he is stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

 

I'm not sure about the Burke character. That is so far outside Federation norms as to be unheard of. But sending the colonists to investigate is required for the scenario to happen.

OTOH, it wouldn't have to be malevolent, these people are explorers by nature.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plus Data &/or The Doctor, especially The Doctor, could more safely walk into & through the xeno infested areas of HH.

 

Let's not bring main characters into this, please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Voyager's doctor used 29th century technology which is not available to other holograms, and he is stuck in the Delta Quadrant.

 

I'm not sure about the Burke character. That is so far outside Federation norms as to be unheard of. But sending the colonists to investigate is required for the scenario to happen.

OTOH, it wouldn't have to be malevolent, these people are explorers by nature.

 

There are occasionally nefarious people in Starfleet (like Eric Pressman, for instance) engaged in activities that the Federation at large would consider unethical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×