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However, official materials say that Coruscant's population is only 1 trillion. And considering that Nar Shaddaa's population was only 75 billion (going by the SW Encyclopedia), we can deduce that most ecumenopolis worlds are less heavily populated than Coruscant. Skako, another Ecumenopolis, had a population that varied between 100 billion and 500 billion.

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Also, Saxton's fan calculations about Coruscant's population aren't canon.

 

As for the Death Star novel, no, I have it, and it said that the beam was at one-third power.

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It is a common argument that Dr. Saxton's figures are not canon. But they are based on canon and calculated logically.

I'll explain the Coruscant population thing. Take the population of New York City, Chicago, Hong Kong, etc., and compare to the area. Multiply that by the surface of the entire Earth. What do you get?

Consider that traffic on Coruscant is much more dense, because it extends in 3 dimensions, and the buildings are many times larger. The population is much more dense than those cities. But run the calculation and report back what you find...

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Yeah, Vince is right. That is why I say logistics is the most important single factor. The Republic/Empire has unfathomable logistics, just to feed everyone and fuel all the ships and vehicles.

Imagine just the food eaten and waste disposed of in a day on Coruscant.

The US was able to defeat Germany in WWII because they had poor logistics, and ours was the best in the world. They couldn't feed their troops or fuel their tanks, and our troops had full bellies and the tanks were all topped off with gas.

The Empire is not unbeatable. But you won't beat them in a war of attrition!

Or produce more power. Or outrun them. You have to actually BEAT them the hard way. There aren't a lot of weaknesses to exploit.

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And yet, his calculations are often contradicted by canon. While Coruscant SHOULD have a population in the quadrillions, it's population is listed in canon sources as only 1 trillion.

 

And TCW showed that 100-megaton missiles were considered a major threat, being launched from a shielded city, and called "long-range", because apparently, the people in that city didn't want those things going off anywhere near them.

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And yet, his calculations are often contradicted by canon. While Coruscant SHOULD have a population in the quadrillions, it's population is listed in canon sources as only 1 trillion.

 

And TCW showed that 100-megaton missiles were considered a major threat, being launched from a shielded city, and called "long-range", because apparently, the people in that city didn't want those things going off anywhere near them.

 

The movies from which all of this is based show ISDs reducing asteroids to fragments too small to be seen on screen in an eye blink with guns that are not visible even on the studio model at a rate of one every few seconds. The artillery being used on Tantive IV, a ship that is about as small in comparison to an ISD as a rowboat is to a modern destroyer, whited out the entire screen for a frame each time a shot connected.

 

Also you're not providing any context for that statement. What makes you say that they are afraid of that missile? Did they explicitly say it had to be used at long range or else it would be a risk to the city or could they just be saying its a missile that has a relatively long effective range? What is it being used on? What did the missile accomplish?

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The 100-megaton-yield missiles weren't actually used, but were mentioned by a Clonetrooper. The missiles were stated to be "long-range", implying that the Umbarans didn't want these things going off anywhere near them. The missiles they used to attack the Clones were of a sub-kiloton yield, implying that the 100 MT missiles were a last resort, should the Clones get too uppity.

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“The first blast burned away all life and boiled the oceans. The second melted the crust and mantle. The third finally destroyed the planet. That doesn't sound like 1E39 megatons to me.”

Blast one: ~158 petatons

Blast three: at least e+32 [max power e+39] joules*

http://highpowerrocketry.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/bang-table-from-atomic-rocket-webpage.html

So in between somewhere, its had to ramp up its firepower by several orders of magnitude.

 

Secondly, your source is c-canon, and iirc correctly it sais it hits the planet with energy enough to effectively send some of its mass FTL into hyperspace? Regardless, I have several sources that indicate or support the e39 yield, and the derivative power and fuel needed. So they out number that *one* (:

And derivative of that, it doesn’t really debunk the logistical ramifications that I listed in the post. The upper limits of which, suggest fuel has been used in numbers like 2 trillion solar masses :p

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The ICS is C-Canon as well. And it wasn't stated to be a super amount of energy needed, but rather, exotic particles that were drawn from hyperspace that, when fired, would send a chunk of the planet's mass into hyperspace. Granted, there was a lot of energy needed as well, but it wasn't all DET.

 

Yes, the Death Star novel pretty much confirmed DarkStar's "Magical Chain Reaction" (MCR) theory.

 

Although, it would be funnier if it had used the other MCR - My Chemical Romance - to destroy planets.

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Confirmed? No, one source indicates magical chain reaction theory. Yes, its c canon and equal to ICS in that sense of validity... but which do you think was more authoritatively written? Remember none of those technical bits in the ICS are there without reason, discussion, and scientific research (:

 

My point was i have several c-canon quotes indicating direct energy transfer, out numbering that source. Not just the ICS

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Wookieepedia flat out states that the Superlaser works by that principle. And the ICS' numbers come from old ASVSers emailing Saxton those numbers, just so they could say "Wars wins".

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No they reeallly dont come from that. Wookiepedia isnt canon, its derivative of canon, it states everything in canon [or trys to imply it] it dosnt effect the fact that more numerous canon sources indicate the raw power side of things [to at least the extent that thats most of the energy involved] The old wookie of the web is a reliable source, but it has to take everything into consideration (:

 

I have done calcs based on canon base delta zeros, and canon texts defining them, i can show if you like. Their canon, not over ruled by T canon because T canon was invalidated by G canon. And t canons depiction is completely insane :p

 

I have calcs based on the films, accelerations, power outputs, just 0.5% of the generation of a star destroyer results in the teratons

 

Not it is teratons because star wars needs to kill every other faction.

 

Star wars does not need that magnitude of firepower to crush most factions of star trek for example, even the borg. it does that through numbers and industry based on the films, and speed.

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Um, what are you smoking, and where can I get some? C-Canon overrides T-Canon now? Wow, that must be some good shit. We never see anything so much approaching gigatons in G-Canon. In fact, before the ICS came out, the pro-Wars side at highest, could squeeze one gigaton out of an ISD.

 

And the Borg can put out more numbers than the Empire can. As Chakotay said in "Scorpion", the Borg have "Millions of ships." He WAS linked up to a renegade part of the Borg for a while, and he would probably know that that's true. Not to mention in "Dark Frontier", Unimatrix One was stated by Tuvok to have "trillions of drones". Which is higher than the canon population of Coruscant.

 

Lucas himself said that he doesn't differentiate between G-Canon and T-Canon.

 

Also, I have some BDZs which have... less than impressive results.

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Khas; im not wanking. T canon is over ruled by the G CANON, of which the C canon bombardments and ICS figures DO NOT contradict, TCW does. You know that is what i was saying its what i wrote. Look wasnt provoking you on the borg, and we discused the population of coruscant. Borg might have similar total population to STAR WARS but far less industry to replace "millions of ships" [which may include their fighters leading to mere thousands you know] i have seen extensive discusiion on that. Wouldnt it work out at thousands of borg cubes per borg world? Not that it matteres millions v millions the empire would have numerous advantages wouldnt it. But g canon [by the canon policy] does over rule in direct contradiction.

 

And people before ICS may never had fully considered the accelerations seen on screen, i never really did for years lol, its easy to overlook when you dont think hey, how look at how fast their going, if their going that fast, they must be producing x power.

 

Well i have some BDZ quotes explicitly worldwide, and crust melting. Ignoring direct "crust melting" and going by mere parameters "all resources" for example, creates some very high firepower also

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Um, yeah they do contradict. The ICS states that fighters have KT-level weapons, while capital ships have GT-level. If this was the case, then why even use fighters in large battles, since they wouldn't be able to do jackshit agains Capships. However, in the opening battle of ROTS, we see Anakin's Jedi Fighter do considerable damage to part of the Invisible Hand. You can't reconcile that with the ICS.

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You can, they shoot at external componants, radars, towers, shield generators, door control modules.

 

Do you think 72 fighters could sit out at a distance, and just shoot at a unsheilded star destroyer [like a capital ship] and it would just go BOOM once its health ran out. No it wouldnt. becos they have to fly in close, maybe under shields, or wait till their lowered. And shoot at the delicate components.

 

Hang on considerable damage :p, no not on a capital ship scale, not like in ROTJ where a mon cal blows a star destroyer away with one bolt is it

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They are of effect agiainst capital ships with kiloton weapons. Just magnitudes less effect than capital weaponry

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For all we know, that ISD could've been under heavy bombardment for a while. But, it really isn't impressive, if they can't survive one hit from their own weapons.

 

Not to mention, the little incident where an out-of-control A-Wing sent the Executor diving towards the Death Star. That also didn't look like an explosion that the ICS said would've happened.

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Yes but the bolt had orders of magnitude greater than effect than a fighter cannon, and such is to be expected; limiting cap firepower cos orders of magnitude less FP can have effect is wrong.

 

Why didnt it , the explosion is in space it tells us nothing. The a wing flew trhough a window caused an energy leak to those powerful domes, which lead to the additional explosions.

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For all we know, that ISD could've been under heavy bombardment for a while. But, it really isn't impressive, if they can't survive one hit from their own weapons.

 

Not to mention, the little incident where an out-of-control A-Wing sent the Executor diving towards the Death Star. That also didn't look like an explosion that the ICS said would've happened.

 

Freak accidents happen in battle. Two ships of the line go gun to gun and just punch holes in their wooden hulls with the cannon balls until one sinks while another duel might end with one being gutted by its gunpowder being set off in the first volley. Real battles aren't like Starcraft, ships don't have a set number of hit points and then they explode. They are boxes with uneven distributions of armor filled with empty space, machinery, people, power cores, fuel silos, ammunition etc. A hit that splashes harmlessly against the strongest armor might penetrate weaker armor and pass through the ship without hitting anything useful or it might detonate the whole damn ship. It all depends on where a shot hits and the power.

 

The ICS is a contemplation of the consequences of what is seen and said on screen if we assume Star Wars obeys all the laws of physics and reason that they do not explicitly break. The novels present a point of view that Star Wars is about as rational as Flash Gordon. Which flies in the face of the obvious effort that George Lucas put into making Star Wars seems as if everything besides the Force is not magic. He could have had the old Star Trek concept artists design his universe and use abstract looking avante garde designs for the technology. Yet he didn't, he made a conscious effort to accept designs that seemed mechanical and plausible rather than magical. I would argue that in this light it is Saxton's vision of a Star Wars that does not break laws of physics and reason unnecessarily that is more valid than the EU with its smaller armies than WW2, a Coruscant or Death Star that leaves most of its inhabitable area as a ghost town or capital warships that cannot harness even a fraction of the forces they can use for propulsion for destruction.

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Khas, I created a video that explains the process used to derive some of the figures in the ICS. If you haven't seen it, you should.

To suggest that a bunch of debaters sent in arbitrary figures is completely unsupported and even suggests you don't understand the process.

If you insist that we've never seen that kind of firepower, I challenge you to demonstrate what kind of firepower is necessary to blow 60 meter holes in Republic and Separatist armor, given known information. I want an exact number. And provide me with an exact number for the firepower needed to blow that other starship in half too.

I look forward to your specific response with calculations included.

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How the Navy's Incompetence Sunk the Green Fleet

 

Synopsis: the USN was going to attempt to fuel an entire carrier battlegroup with just biofuels. It was a brilliant idea actually..had it worked. The military has come to view the dependency on foreign oil as a strategic vulnerability. The fuel budget drunkenly swings from one extreme to another as the market does the same, taking away money from procurement, training, maintenance etc. and just generally making the business of defense all the more costly. Converting the military over to a green model would free their supply chain from the predations of the fickle market and the volatile politics of procuring your volatiles from a volatile region.

 

The only problem is that there's no fuel to be had. Even with massive cash infusions from the navy and department of energy, the private sector still isn't unable to produce enough fuel to sustain a carrier battlegroup. Its even a tough call whether a showcase trip from the West coast to Hawaii on just biofuels will even happen.

 

So this brings us to one of the major considerations of war, whether its supplying the Roman legions or Battlestar Group 52, what you put in your tank, where you get it from, how it gets to the front lines and what other variables are involved in its availability can make or break empires. The need for Tylium, food and water influenced numerous decisions made by Admiral Adama throughout Galactica 2k3 as it did Voyager and its needs. Even ships that are not cut off from their supply chains still have needs. Securing star ports and strategic resources were major themes in TOS as the Federation worked to stay ahead of the Klingon Empire and even in TNG, the opening episode of the series dealt with a planet desiring better relations with the Federation presenting them with a state of the art base that would presumably ease the logistical burdens as the Federation boldly went where no man had gone before.

 

Also, the article brings up another issue. That being that technology is not always plug and play. In order to convert to pure biofuels, the Navy had to embark on a program to retrofit several ships to operate off of the new fuels which would have taken said ships out of operation for a period of time while the modifications were made. I don't know if it was hours, days, weeks or months or even how extensive the modifications were, but the point was that for a period of time, these ships were not operational and not performing their missions. (Yes, I do know that such things are planned, that ideally, a third of the fleet is at dock having maintenance performed and the crews rested, a third is training for deployment and a third is on station, however it is still a consideration that maintenance cycles can be thrown off by extended deployments, unexpected upgrades / repairs etc. necessitating alterations to carefully laid plans.)

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Completely redefining a ship's mission and replacing existing equipment can't be done in a day.

 

This article is an update on the USN Littoral Combat Ship, a ship that was designed to be light weight, cheap and have the ability to rapidly swap out mission modules so that the ship can show up at port and have its capabilities radically altered with just a few days of work. Well now the grim reality of it, is that even for a ship designed to be modular, the labor involved is on the order of weeks, not days. This would be relevant to how quickly, say, the main turrets on an Omega-class destroyer from B5 could be swapped out or the modules on Miranda and Nebula-class starships from Star Trek. Also, the article talks about the difficulty of cramming more functionality into a hull that has no allowances for modifications after the fact. There is only just enough ship to do what it is able to do now and adding on, say, long range antiship missiles to give it the ability to attack surface warships requires removing something. So every new thing this ship can do will be in place of, not in addition to what it can already do.

 

I think this is most relevant to debates in which defenders of party A claim that their team can rapidly adapt to the technologies that mean a decisive win for Team B in certain circumstances. Without painting too broad of a brush, proponents of the Federation and Earth Alliance (and upstart humans in just about any universe) tend to be the most likely to make the claim that they can adapt to someone else's technology before the side with crushing superiority wins. Yet, here we see in the real world, radically altering a ship that was designed to be radically altered on the fly in just a few days is not actually feasible in such a time frame. Perhaps in a total war scenario will full mobilization, as many engineers and any tool the military desires to throw at the problem and experience, maybe they could conceivably get it down to just a few days. Maybe. But then the LCS is a vastly more complex animal than the Liberty Ships of World War 2 that an arbitrary number of workers with unlimited resources could build in a few days.

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Striking The Set in The Theater of War

 

I'm not sure if this will be visible or not. When I tried to find it on the New York Times website I hit a pay wall but it works through digg.com The article has a great description of the effort involved in transporting all of the war supplies and material out of Afghanistan. Because of budget concerns, they are taking literally everything that wasn't promised to the Afghan army, right down to the printer paper. Plus it all has to be sorted, boxed, electronically tagged, palletized, loaded onto cargo containers and then onto cargo planes and trucks, the latter of which have to travel through Afghan territory that is only semi stable and through Pakistan, an ally who is also only semi stable.

 

All in all, it gives a great impression of the scale of just how much stuff is stockpiled and used in a relatively small, low intensity war by the standards of an industrialized planet. We're talking about a 24 / 7 operation with trucks leaving every few hours loaded with war materials from just the one base. Ultimately pulling out of Afghanistan will involve over 100,000 shipping containers (i.e., the ones you see on the backs of trailers or on the decks of bulk freighters.)

 

Replicators or gray goo nanoassembly (Andromeda, B5's First Ones) would solve some of these logistical problems but then you still need a lengthy supply chain for replicator batteries and things that can't or shouldn't be replicated on site (due to either efficiency, complexity, necessity of exotic materials, intelligence concerns or scale)

Edited by scvn2812

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What would it take to restart production of the F-22?

 

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney stated that he wants to build more F-22s. I'm with holding my opinion on whether or not this is a worthwhile idea in the hopes of avoiding this topic derailing into politics. Its probably better that we not know where we all stand on various issues. :p This article gives some interesting information on what is involved in restarting production on a weapon system that stopped production only a year ago.

 

By the time Mr. Romney would have the option to restart production, it will have been about 2 years since the last F-22 was built. The cost to reopen the production line is estimated at $900 million. The cost per jet with R&D factored in was $370 million, the manufacturing is about $137 million of that.

 

From the time the decision is made to restart production, it would take at least two years to get up and running again, assuming they can get most of the original workers back. This time frame includes re-establishing supplier networks for components and raw materials and retraining employees.

 

Some links to scifi to be made:

 

If we go by NCC#s, a lot of the new builds for the Dominion War had their origins in older designs. The Steamrunner, Akira, Saber etc. were probably designed for earlier conflicts with the Tzen'kethi or Cardassians whose production runs were slowed or canceled when these "minor" conflicts petered out and they were no longer relevant for the types of operations Starfleet anticipated needing ships to perform. The Borg and Dominion threats came out of no where and Starfleet reordered the ships. However, the logistics would be in personnel. If we look at the ships in service in TNG, it seems like a disproportionate amount of Starfleet has been trained on Mirandas and Excelsiors. The introduction of new ships and technologies requires retraining personnel to be certified on these new ships. So it makes a certain amount of sense that for the first year of the war, the burden of fighting was shouldered by the ships least apt for shouldering it: the Mirandas and Excelsiors. Starfleet had the ships and they had a massive volume of personnel checked out on them.

 

This also would illustrate some of the teething problems the Republic / Empire would have had in building a galactic military from scratch. Had the Kaminoans and contractors for building the Acclamators and Venators not had ten years notice that all hell was going to break loose, Coruscant may very well have been flying the Confederate flag. Droid laborers may not need to be retrained but they do need to be reprogrammed. Which means that someone has to write the software update and then it has to be sent out to all the relevant droids. Nearly anyone who has ever played a PC game or used a smart phone app no doubt have spent no small amount of time wondering when our app / game / device is going to receive a patch for some issue or another. Nothing ever seems to go as planned. ;)

 

Finally, the Earth Alliance ended the 2 - 3 year Minbari War basically using the same ships it had begun it with. Minus a few proto-Omegas that got waxed before they could make a meaningful contribution.

 

To make a long story short, it takes time and effort to change or restart production of a complex piece of hardware, even when your labor force is largely automated.

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