Sean Robertson

When you say "Section 31 made that statement about [sic] Klingon Empire before [sic] Breen enter the war," do you mean Agent Sloan said something about the RSE and UFP emerging as the greatest post-war Alpha-Beta Quadrant powers? I still don't see how that really changes the point SCVN made. The Klingons conquered a good bit of Cardassian territory in season 4 and presumably fought the Cardassians until, IIRC, the latter were desperate for a cease-fire ("Return to Grace") less than a year later. Then the Klingons fought the Federation. As Sisko said, "We've been able to slow [the Klingons] down, but that's about all" ("Apocalypse Rising"). Given that the Klingons were defending their territory and their Cardassian holdings, I can't say it's altogether optimistic for a key representative of the Federation Starfleet to say his people have fought the Klingons but have only slowed them down Some might suggest that Starfleet was slow to respond to the Klingon threat, but that's not exactly something to brag about in warfare Slow response time would suggest a host of bad things about the Starfleet -- and no, I'm not even going to suggest gross incompetence as some former associate of ours might. I'm not sure I understand you, so I hesitate to reply here. The long-standing assumption's been that the UFP is much larger than the Klingons or Romulans in terms of space, worlds and resources. That might be true; right now, I'm tired and frankly don't care to explore that discussion. All I can do is to kindly ask for you to express those sentiments in something closer to proper English. I can barely make sense of what you wrote. Yet the Cardassians were threat enough that, in the interest of peace, the UFP surrendered some of its planets to the Cardassians in the Neutral Zone. The Cardies were also threat enough that, when they allied with the Dominion, Cardassian ships were right there with Dominion fighters and cruisers. And there have been plenty of times we've seen even less than the CUS's best in Galors blow away enemy ships with one discharge from their main weapon emitter ("Sacrifice of Angels," "Once More Unto the Breach," "What You Leave Behind"). If you're talking about the Klingons in ST:ENT, those guys were specially interested in genetic engineering. I'd hardly say their ambition = some big win for Sector 31, especially since the Klingons with less pronounced ridges went on to rule a good part of the quadrant (remember Kor and "Errand of Mercy"?). Section 31 is ruthless but it's hardly some ace-in-the-hole in a Klingon v. UFP debate. Section 31 failed to save the Federation by wiping out the Founders with the disease they generated. They didn't stop the Xindi planet-killer from nearly destroying Earth. They didn't avert the war in "Yesterday's Enterprise." They didn't ever intervene when the Borg were about to fuck over humanity. Like any secret agency -- the CIA, the NSA -- Section 31 isn't omniscient. They might be ahead of the curve but depending on them to prevent the Klingons from winning a major war = fail IMO. S31 certainly didn't have Picard convinced that the Federation would have to surrender within months in "Yesterday's Enterprise," no? -Sean

Incidental note for you, Khas: I had the chance to meet Gunny R. Lee Ermey recently, but I blew it Fact is, my father had me "stand guard" whilst he and my mom attended a convention in the Charlotte, NC area. I was happy for them. but I really wanted a signature from Gunny Ermey if nothing else. They said the line was too long, albeit the fact he broke ranks to take a pic with her. (Marines know good-looking women when they see 'em.) Maybe next time. Regardless, I hold Gunny Ermey in the very highest regard. In addition to his many appearances, I understand he's a very generous, kind, loving Christian man.

I'm not sure, Khas All I know is that, between the stress of taking care of my dad, some cough meds and, yes, a shot of good-old Sovietski vodka, I'm a bit looser than normal; still, sick as I still *sorta* am, I can take better care of my Dad and I'm more cognizant of others' problems, including Little D's illness I know she'll get over it, but I'm still said to hear she's not at 100%.

Gentlemen, Along with the classic ISD v. Enterprise debate, I thought I might toss the Klingons versus the Federation discussion into the fray. So far as I know, this is NOT a topic Brian intends to cover; as such, if this isn't the appropriate place for this thread, I apologize to the mods in advance and request that it be redirected to the proper venue. Really, though, the Klingons fighting the Federation is every Trekkies' dream scenario. The Borg are entirely too powerful and, unencumbered by wormhole nonsense, we all know the Dominion, even sans allies, is easily a potential overmatch for our beloved Federation and its Starfleet. But what about the classic adversary, the Klingons? In "Yesterday's Enterprise," we learn that, after a 20ish-something year war, half of Starfleet had been destroyed and the war was going so badly that the Federation was considering a kind of surrender (? I think that's right). I've debated this with many Trekkies in the past. They swear up and down that the Klingon Empire simply *cannot* be the dominant local power. But then, what about the events of "All Good Things"? In that timeline, the Klingons had conquered the entire Romulan Empire. In DS9's "The Visitor," Klingons had actually even taken control of DS9. I've little doubt the Federation would have allowed that unless it was absolutely necessary to keep the peace. That is not without precedent. The Federation has been known to secede some of its planets/systems in the interest of diplomacy; e.g., "Final Mission," which saw a human colony suddenly fall under Cardassian jurisdiction. Still, giving up control of the wormhole, particularly after the Dominion established itself to be thoroughly unpleasant ... that also leads me to the conclusion that, at full-strength at least, the Klingons are the greatest military power opposite the RSE and UFP. That is NOT to suggest the UFP could not prevail in a war against the Klingons, even the Federation's supposedly greater industry; nonetheless, even with those resources, just as I said, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass in the "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline. The way I reckon, unless someone can offer good reason why that alternate timeline isn't indicative of what might happen in the "real timeline," I think it's a case-closed scenario. That is, the more militarized Klingons would, more often than not, whip the Federation in a war. That's not to say the Federation could never prevail, of course. Post-DS9 tech, to say nothing of the Voyager's findings, might turn the tide and then some. On the other hand, when we're talking "VGR's home!" stuff, it's important to remember who's in charge of the Klingon Empire: Chancellor Martok. He's as human and Federation-friendly as you'll ever find. The likelihood of warfare with him is absolutely nil. More cough-syrup inspired ravings -Sean